A Question for any Breeders on DK

[Discussing Labradoodles & Goldendoodles]

In researching how to choose a breeder we've come across several instances where breeding schedules and the age of the dog being bred are being discussed. 

 

What we are seeing is that one of the more common guidelines is not to breed a dog under a year old.  Another is to allow at least one unbred season between breeding cycles. 

 

My questions are:

What measure of import should we attribute to these guidelines if we find they may have been overlooked by a breeder?  

 

What affect does it have on the puppies ?

 

 

[Linda, Webber and Seda]

I am not a breeder.  I researched this issue when I was considering adopting a breeding female that was being retired and was seeking a forever home.  What I discovered was all kinds of opinions.  My breeder does not breed the first heat (under a year).  There are tests to do on the dogs before they are bred.  If the dog is a happy and devoted mother they then breed them ever heat until they are 4 years old.  I guess there is a body of evidence that suggests it is better for the dog to be bred heat after heat and then retired.  All this presumes the dog has been cleared for genetic disorders and is not being line bred.

The following comes from the International Labradoodle Association under Breeder ethics:  I shall not purposely breed from any bitch kept by causing it to be mated before it is twelve months of age or after six years of age.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think that when we choose to purchase anything, but especially a living creature, we should always consider the larger issue of whether we are giving our support to something or someone with questionable ethics. A person might be tempted to buy something from a certain company because it is cheaper than the competitors, but what if the reason that company's item is cheaper is because they use child labor? A person might buy a puppy from a pet store or puppy mill and luck out with a prefectly healthy, sweet dog, but what about the fact that in purchasing that dog, they have helped the puppy mill continue to abuse the mother and countless other dogs? So there is a larger question when we look at breeding practices of a particular breeder than just the affect on the puppies.

However, in regard to the puppies,there are many genetic diseases which cannot be tested for and which show up as a dog matures. I personally would not buy any puppy of any breed (or mix) from a mother who is less than 2 or 3 years old, because of this issue. It's not hard to have these kinds of standards when you are dealing with breeders who put some kind of championship title (obedience, agility, conformation) on their dogs prior to breeding them. With doodles, however, championships of any kind are rare. Since the dogs are there solely for the purpose of producing litters, breeding starts fairly early.

Still, it ought to be possible to find many good, responsible breeders with some 2 or 3 year old breeding females. The added bonus of this is that you have the opportunity of seeing past puppies that the bitch has produced, and perhaps being reassured about there not being health issues with them.

[Adina P]

From my reading (which isn't necessarily exhaustive or from peer-reviewed literature) but just snooping around the web... I would care far more about the aqe of the mom at breeding than about how many cycles she goes between litters.  Because, as Karen said, there are some conditions that can't be screened via DNA testing or other health testing and having a mature mom of at least 2 years old would make ME feel better.  That said, this is what *I* personally look for in a breeding pair when considering purchasing a doodle pup: two adult dogs that are over 2 years old each. 

 

I've heard mixed things about waiting between heat cycles. On the one hand, some of the risks of a momma dog having all her organs are equal whether she is pregnant or not.  On the other hand, there's always the concern about how often a dog is bred and the background of what's going on in the breeding program.  But I think these are two different issues.  I'm not sure (though I could be wrong) that we know enough about a dog's recovery between breedings.  I am not sure it can be easily compared to humans and waiting between pregnancies.  And then the question of HOW many times a dog is bred and for how long total.  Is waiting till the age of two and breeding every cycle for 4 litters better or worse than starting at age 18 months and breeding every other cycle for 6 litters? 

 

Last time I considered buying a puppy one of the factors that drew me to a particular breeder was that the mom was 4-5 years old and the sire was older (7-10 years or so. Not a problem with studs to be older) -- this made ME, personally, more confident in getting a healthy pup from that litter given that all other health testing had been passed. 

[April Cliber]

Hi Linda,

The commonly accepted age for breeding a doodle female is after all health testing has been completed and on the first or second cycle after their first birthday.  (That could be their 2nd or 3rd cycle.)  This is typically between 16-24 months old.  Keep in mind that OFA prelims are acceptable for most breeders as well as ALAA and GANA.  A good breeder will take this case by case.  Some dogs are amazing moms even when they are young and some females are less then ideal moms.   IMO the relationship a breeder has with his/her dogs is key.  If a female is a loved pet, is happy and secure in her surroundings and trusts her owner, she will most likely be an excellent mother.  If the female is stressed, underfed, not healthy and doesn't have a good human relationship to rely on she will typically be a stressed and less attentive mother.  I would be more concerned with the females surroundings and the type of life she has then the age she is when she has pups.  Of course health testing is extremely important as well. 

 

As far as breeding back to back or skipping cycles....again it needs to be done case by case.  Some moms recover very quickly and can have two litters in a year.  Others should never have a second litter.  A mom's overall health should always be monitored.  I hope this helps. :o)  Good luck in your search!

[Dreamydoodles Northwest]

This is all going to throw you for a loop and probably piss you off but this is just something I read OK not something I personally follow..

I also found this by the same Vet -- Revisiting back to back breeding http://dogbreeding.net.au/revisiting-back-to-back-breeding/242

Is It Safe To Breed The Mother Dog Back To Back?

I will leave this explication to a Veterinarian who is ALSO a breeder, her name is Dr Kate Schoeffel in Australia. What I have done is copied & pasted her response to a few questions asked to her by other breeders, & this is what she said about breeding a bitch back to back every heat cycle...

"It is probably an appropriate place to question on your question about "regular breeding" Rochelle. Yes I was being a bit euphemistic - the condemnation of breeding on every heat is so universal that even I am a little reluctant to "come out" on this issue. But the fact remains that breeding on every heat is what dogs are designed to do by nature and that the "unnatural" practice of preventing regular pregnancies is actually bad for bitches!

Radical stuff I know but if you don't believe this then ask your vet the following:

1. Does pregnancy postpone the onset of Cystic Endometrial Hyperplasia and reduce the incidence of mammary tumors in entire bitches 
2. What are the adverse health consequences for a normal healthy bitch from breeding on every heat? 

My approach and my advice to clients who want to breed their dog - mostly backyard pet owners wanting to breed a litter or two for fun - is to breed early and breed regularly until you have bred the puppies you want - then desex your dog. IMNVHO this is the approach that is in the best interest of the bitch with regard to diseases associated with reproduction.

I believe that the current 'breeder ethics' which limit the breeding age and frequency of litters are designed to limit the puppy population (not a bad thing) or are based on 'feeling sorry for the bitch' rather than on science.

Since this is already a ridiculously long post I may as well add a bit of theory to back up what I'm saying:

When a bitch comes on heat she will go through a series of hormonal changes - rising oestrogen, drop in oestrogen then rising progesterone and high levels of progesterone for about 2 months. The unusual thing about dogs compared with the other species we deal with is that these hormonal changes are the same whether the animal is pregnant or not. The long "luteal phase" with high progesterone is what produces "pseudopregnancies" and rather than being abnormal or unusual and needing treatment pseudopregnancy is what happens when a bitch is not mated.

In a pseudopregnancy the uterine lining thickens as it does in pregnancy but in pregnancy the lining does not get "hyperplastic" - it doesn't thicken or secrete abnormally. In each successive pseudopregnancy this thickening is exacerbated. Pregnancy therefore protects against Cystic Endometrial Hyperplasia.

I am not sure why pregnancy is regarded as being protective against mammary tumours. In humans my understanding is that it is because the predisposing factor is the increase in breast tissue with the influence of oestrogen every month but in dogs the hormones don't change much whether the dog is pregnant or pseudopregnant. I assume it is actually lactation which is protective. "

In short " YES IT IS SAFE & BETTER ON THE BITCH TO DO SO"

WHEN Should You Breed Your Bitch For The First Time?

The same deal Dr Kate From Australia was asked this questions & I copied & posted her response..

"The other thing I would like to comment on it the issues of breeding age and how often to breed.

At university - in our animal reproduction course - I was told in no uncertain terms that, contrary to "breeders ethics" there is no scientific reason for not breeding a dog on its first and subsequent heats. "As long as the bitch is fed well they will continue to grow normally through pregnancy" was Dr Wright's advice. Admittedly this was 25 years ago but when I started breeding I assumed this advice was valid and that I could, safely and without causing harm to my dogs, breed them on their first cycle.

I'm happy to report that theory held up! I have never had a "dystocia" (difficult whelping) in any of my Labradors, they are all fit healthy dogs and to date I have never had any health problems associated with reproduction.

I think that I have an advantage by breeding small poodles to large Labradors - the puppies are much smaller than purebred Labs and being F1 are very vigorous puppies - so it may be that I have just been lucky and that the theory that I was taught at vet school is not universally valid.

I'd be interested to know what health problems you are finding to be reported as likely problems in dogs bred earlier than 2 years - what were your vet's concerns Karen B? It may be that they are concerned about weight on growing joints perhaps? I suspect that many breeding problems are a result of "inbreeding depression" - the "opposite", if you like, of hybrid vigor - which results in fertility and reproductive problems in many purebred dogs.

The argument that 2 years is required before one can be sure that dogs are HD free is valid - Juliane knows more about this than I do and might like to comment on this (an example of an educated breeder doing the research). Certainly if I was planning to breed on from my dogs I would be screening my bitches and taking this into consideration when deciding on the choice of breeding age.

In my little poodles I wait for at least one heat - the little girls are so tiny and mature so early that I "feel sorry for them" - this is anthropomorphic and is a different thing to actually being concerned about the health of the dogs. A couple of times when accidents have occurred (as inevitably they do if a pup comes on heat a bit earlier and with less fanfare than expected and there is a quick dog around!) these tiny bitches have whelped naturally and without complications - although I do find that my pure poodle puppies are much less vigorous than the labradoodles and they do throw the occasional birth defect. "

In short

IT IS SAFE TO BREED YOUR BITCH DOG ON HER FIRST HEAT & IT CAUSES NO ILL HAPPENINGS OR SIDE EFFECTS...

The above article was sent to me by another breeder... I just wanted to share some words on the other side of the opinion.
I personally think the second heat is best after all genetic testing has been done which can be done by 16 weeks or younger if you do PennHip and eyes and heart as well can be tested very young.

About Dr Kate Schoeffel
Dr Kate Schoeffel is a NSW based veterinarian and professional breeder of Labradoodles. Kate is an international pioneer of crossbreeds (designer breeds), having introduced the Labradoodle some 20 years ago.
Kate is also a pioneer of the professional dog breeding industry in Australia, being the founder and president of the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders Inc. (website: www.aapdb.com).
She and her husband Bruce live on their farm in NSW and have four daughters.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Let me see, how can I say this tactfully....?

You have to know who "Dr. Kate" is before you evaluate these statements. That's really all I feel comfortable saying in a public forum.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Despite that and ignoring her encouragement of BYBs, some of the hormonal issues she discusses sound valid. I didn't quite understand this statement "Certainly if I was planning to breed on from my dogs I would be screening my b****** and taking this into consideration when deciding on the choice of breeding age." Does this mean she thinks HD is not important if it's only in a pet, not a breeder? That would be so wrong.

[Dreamydoodles Northwest]

Oh really? Do you know her? I'm just posting something I found that contradicted what I've always been told so I always find that interesting. I however do not follow those guidelines.. as I've already said.. can you tell I don't want to be associated? Haha! So what's up with Dr. Kate?

[Carol Brand]

"As long as the b**** is fed well they will continue to grow normally through pregnancy" was Dr Wright's advice.

 

This right here should be a giant wake up call that this person's advice is not sound.  Why should any bitch have to dedicate resources to growing and feeding a litter when her own body is NOT ALREADY FULLY GROWN? That's just wrong!

 

To answer the OP's question....  I would never buy a puppy from breeding dogs who were under age 2.  

 

1.  I don't trust OFA prelims or early Pennhips.  Hips change as the dog physically grows and matures.  I have seen hip  scores change for the worse.  (For reference good purebred Poodle breeders DO NOT breed on prelims.)    

 

2.  I want to see the adult health of the dogs and the dogs in their lines.  Many, many Poodle health issues like Addisons or SA or Epilepsy typically don't show until after age 2.   

 

3.  I want to see the true adult structure and temperament. I totally cringe when I see people breeding stud dogs who are under a year old.  Dogs change as they grow.  Their bodies change,  their coats change and especially in male dogs, their temperaments change.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[April Cliber]

The below is directly from the OFA website.  When GANA (Goldendoodle Association of North America) was being formed prelims we greatly researched and this is some of the info we found.  Just to be clear, I'm NOT saying that I think it's fine for all dogs to be bred before two.  Just that research shows Excellent and Good prelims to be reliable. 

"A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months)."  Here is the link http://www.offa.org/hd_prelims.html

[Carol Brand]

Thanks for the reference.  It was interesting.  I wonder how many dogs were in their study and what breeds they were.  The study is from 1997.   My sense is that many more breeders are using prelims now.  I wonder if those stats would be the same today.

 

Still, in the 14 years since that study was published,  OFA has not changed its overall policy.  Dogs still need to be 2 yrs old to have their hips officially OFA certified.    I understand as a breeder wanting to know early on if my breeding prospect was in the general ballpark when it came to good hips, but it seems to me that early testing is simply used by too many as a justification for early breeding.  After getting a prelim, I see very, very few breeders who follow up and re-test hips after age 2.  

 

 

[April Cliber]

You are correct, many and I would guess most breeders who get a good or excellent prelim don't do a permanent.  But according to this research they are 93.8% safe in doing so.  Honestly, I don't have great faith in OFA.  I DO OFA every parent dog, and don't breed a dog unless they pass, but I've seen great variations depending on which vet does the x-ray.  I've also seen dogs get a OFA good yet miserably fail a Pennhip.  Since OFA has been formed in 1966 we have not seen a drastic drop in hip dysplasia.  Either breeders are still breeding dogs that fail or there are inaccuracies with the results.  My guess is that it's both.  IMO, OFA is a tool that all breeders should use.  It's the best we have available, so I use it....I really hope that in the future we will have a more dependable test.  Imagine if we had a DNA test, that would be amazing!

I have a vet apt so have to run...I'll check in later. :o)