Alpha theory vs. Positive training...HELP...so confused!

[Julie Mison]

Many of you know that my mom and I have posted on and off about our Chewie who is now 15 months.  We have used trainers that first taught us about Alpha theory/dominance to more recently complete positive reinforcement training.  Our recent trainer has given us literature disputing the dominance theory and alpha research.  However, we continue to struggle with Chewie and are very overwhelmed.  We know, in part, we need to be more consistent, however, it feels like Chewie runs the show and we always have to use treats to get him to listen.

 

Chewie does display very challenging and dominant type behaviors.  He barks at us when he wants something, paws at us, jumps at us and mouths us to try to get us to do things.  When he doesn't like something...he will bark at us.  He has had a history of resource guarding and handling issues since he was very young.  First time he growled and snapped...he was just over 8 weeks of age when we tried to pick him up when he was tired at night.  He is like this with his high value items and at times when handled.  We typically know his "triggers" but nonetheless it feels like we always have to watch out. 

 

We have two young girls....7 and 8.5 and we love Chewie very much.  He loves the kids but gets very demanding with them as well.  Interesting, he is very well behaved when he goes to day care/camp and they even use him to help temperment test the new dogs.

 

Lately, he has been more defiant...not sitting when asked (he knows basic commands) and will not come when called to get his leash on. 

 

So...we are so conflicted.  All dogs need training but for CHewie it is imperative.  We just heard about a trainer who is willing to do "Doggie Bootcamp" where he would live with her for 1 week and she trains him and then brings him back and trains us and helps us to integrate it into the home.  I have to say...we are a bit exhausted and it sounds wonderful to have someone help us get him to a more managable point and then we could maintain it.  However, this trainer believes and subscribes to the Alpha theory and pack order which we have been disuaded against.  But...when you observe Chewie..he truly does not seem to respect us and rules the house in many ways.

 

I know there are many opinions out there.  We just don't want to do anything that will make the situation worse.  How do we know which is the right way?   I guess I'm just looking for any insights or experiences any of you have had that would help.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Adina P]

Theories are theories. What I'd want to know is:

What is this trainer going to DO? and What will I have to DO? Does it make sense?

Positive training is a philosophy, a concept. It is not a method. Just because a trainer subscribes to the positive training philosophy does not make that trainer effective or ineffective. What I'd want to know is does THIS positive trainer's method work? Is it effective? A method is not the same as someone's idea about what's 'right' vs. 'wrong' in dog training. "I believe corrections are wrong" is not a method. "I use choke collars" is also not a method (it's a description of the tool the guy uses).

A method is their step-by-step approach, system, and plan for training a dog. That is what I'd want to know about.

Same goes with the 'alpha' dominance trainer. I, personally, don't buy the entire 'alpha/dominance' concept/philosophy/theory.... Being boss doesn't train a dog. But if this trainer's METHOD is effective then it might be worth pursuing. Find out the rate of success? How many dogs like Chewie has this trainer TRAINED? How many have been 'fixed' by the end and how many continued to have owners who struggled with these issues? What is the trainer's step-by-step approach/system/plan? How will he train the dog and what type of time investment will you have to put in to keep him doing well?

After the 1 week of Chewie being away...how much time does the trainer spend training YOU? How much work will you need to do when the trainer's done with you? What is the trainer's guarantee?

I, for one, have a hard time believing 1 week of boot camp can be enough. Not when he's had 15 months of practice doing the naughty behaviors. But maybe this trainer is downright amazing! I have no idea...I just think it would take longer...especially since he's ignoring commands so well right now.

Essentially...find out about what method the trainer uses (forget his philosophy unless his philosophy offends you greatly) and how successful he is. Ask for references from people who have had dogs with similar problems to Chewie's.

Good luck!

[Adrianne Matzkin]

Back in the day I trained my Beardie, Maggie, with the alpha style - dominance down, etc. When I took Samantha back to the same place I trained Maggie I was so surprised that the styles have changed.
I have a foster with me now who has resource guarding issues and the trainer/assessor truly believes she was trained with the prong collar theory. Certainly didn't work for my foster. She gets more nervous when corrected, even with just a simple 'uh,uh'.
I have read your blogs about Chewie's issues. I can't say what will work for him but I firmly believe that going to this person's home or where ever the training will be is the answer. I don't know the method but I can't imagine it will be a positive one for Chewie. Could that make his issues even stronger?
I am no trainer!! I am only giving you what I believe in my heart.
Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Adina P]

Alpha theory is a theory/idea/concept about one's relationship to a dog and the 'ideal' way to generally handle a dog or relate to him or 'lead' him. It's not an obedience training method or a way to teach anything. Balanced training that uses corrections repeatedly and mistakingly gets mixed up with Alpha theory as if they are the same thing. They are not. I am constantly reading (and this isn't directed at you, Adrianne, just at randomly connected thoughts on the topic) articles pitting Cesar Millan against Victoria Stillwell. And these articles quite often imply that Cesar Millan is equivalent in style and method to all trainers who use corrections. It's SO far from true!

There is no way to know how a foster was trained without having been there. No use in guessing or trying to come up with a dog's past history. There isn't any benefit from bringing a dog's past into the present. There is only NOW and that's what we ever have. And there is no "prong collar theory" -- there is prong collar tool.

Another thing I believe is that proper corrections aren't given until the dog understands exactly what to do---that is the only way they can fully understand what the correction was for. Merely yanking on a prong or any collar to tell the dog 'uh uh" would indeed make a timid, fearful, insecure dog more fearful and insecure.

[shelly]

Hi Julie (and Laura) ~ I do hear you LOUD and CLEAR... we too (as you have probably read) have been more serious about Tori's barking at strangers issues. My DH thinks we could handle it ourselves by rereading books and watching the DVDs we downloaded, but I feel we NEED someone to come HERE to her own environment, so show us first hand what to do and what NOT to do in the situations. We've gone the other route of going to the classes, but her issues are HERE in OUR house. I have a friend who did send her Samoyed away to 'boot camp', he was better but NOT truly 'rehabilitated'. I know it's such a hard decision... after everything I have been reading and interviewing I've been doing, I found that you truly have to go with what works best for YOU, YOUR MOM and CHEWIE!
Good luck!

[shelly]

;-)

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

I would be curious to know how much time the trainer is going to spend working with you when Chewie returns? The reason that I say this is that Chewie doesn't have one issue ..... he basically needs trained in many areas (I'm hesitate to believe as well that that can happen in one week). My concern is that when the trainer brings him back they are going to go through this whole series of instructions that they spent a week on and then leave. It would be so overwhelming that there is no way you could absorb it all. I know when we took training with our girls, each one hour session could be exhausting mentally because they are throwing so many things at you, plus you are trying to remember everything you learned in the previous ones. The training of ME was just as important as the training of our girls. So, the trainer spends a week with Chewie, but how much time do they spend with YOU?

Someone on here recently did a Bootcamp I believe. Can't remember who it was though but I also think it was longer than a week. You might try a search on Bootcamp and see what you come up with.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

Have you gone someplace and taken an 8 week class with him yet? It doesnt matter the style of training at this point it is just training that he needs. Sounds like you have gotten so caught up in the right way vs the wrong way and he has gotten away with being a pain in the arse.

Training doesn't start and end with an 8 week class it is a lifestyle, it has to occur every day.

If your fear is about damaging your dog by using a certain method of training fear not unless you are an abusive person because it wont matter what method you select if your intent is to harm a dog you can do it on a flat collar and leash. Using a prong collar is not bad, it is bad if you don't know how to use it, it isnt about jerking a dog around, it is about the sound the collar makes and the slight pressure it applies when you apply a correction. The same is true for the use of remote collars.

Without training your dog is on the fast track to being rehomed in a year. When you get to that point, call me, I will come get him and help make him the great family member he is capable of being.

I know I sound harsh but honestly your posts are all the same and you have yet to step up to the plate for this dog.

[Laura & Chewie]

My daughter started this discussion, but I will step in here. First of all, thank you to the people who so kindly offered thoughtful and understanding responses and/or opinions.

Now I will address Noble Vestal...yes, Chewie has taken an 8 week intermediate obedience course with five other dogs in the class. He was the star of the class. He is very smart and picks up very quickly. We have also had trainers to my home. He knows his commands...he just decides when to obey them...for a treat almost always, without one...not so much. I have never trained a dog before...had one for 17 years, he lived a long and happy life and it was never a hugh problem. We HAVE stepped up to the plate for Chewie...we have spent A LOT of time and money to try to find what is best. He is treated with much love and care. Unfortunately we are not great at training...shoot me now. I guess any person who isn't an expert at training their dog is a loser in your opinion. So, we've failed Chewie (I can read between the lines)...well our breeder failed us by assuring us that just because Chewie's mom was aggressive toward her pups, it shouldn't affect Chew at all...well we truly believe it did. She wouldn't breed the mom again because of this, but had no problem selling us this puppy. Yes 8-9 week old pups nip a lot, but how many bare their teeth, snarl and snap! We are trying to find the best for him and us, but responses such as yours make us hesitant to share and ask for opinions/advice. You might be a "dog person", but not much of a "people person". I am normally a non-confrontational person, so it is hard for me to write this response, but your insinuations are very offensive. I pray we never have to give Chewie up, but if so, don't worry, we'll find someone capable of being kind to all living things.

[Laura & Chewie]

All other DK members, please accept my apology for this post. It is not my intention to stir up problems...I just really needed to express my feelings after reading her very unkind post.

[shelly]

Laura & Julie... I agree - this is a site to seek HELP and ADVICE... hopefully the 'advice and help' we get is something we can use and suits us... it SURELY should NOT be a place to KICK someone when they're down... your topic is a very sensitive one to ME... as I too have had some issues with Tori (not to the extreme of Chewie's), but issues none the less.... Not everyone is versed in dog training or raising... it's not that you are abusing him, as it seems could be suggested from the post. As a teacher... we are 'trained' to find the method that works for the individual students in my class - if I have 28 students, and I need 20 methods... so be it.. NEVER would I tell a PARENT (which is what you are to Chewie) that they FAILED in providing their child with the proper 'training' and practice at home and now their poor kid has a reading defecit. I applaude you for the effort you are putting in to helping Chewie... MOST people would have given up LONG ago and he would have been REHOMED by NOW!!!, because THAT my friend is unfortunately what 'the outside' world of DoodleKisses' is like! I sincerely hope you find help with Chewie... What JANE wrote about the boot camp sounds very encouraging! Good Luck to ALL of you!

[Julie Mison]

Thanks Shelly...I really appreciate your response.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

I have never worried about popularity : ) it is all about the dogs.

If your breeder failed you by selling you a puppy out of an aggressive mom who may have already had a track record why not ask them to help you in financially supporting having him trained. I am sure this wont make me your breeder's best friend : ).

I just feel this all should have taken place a year ago. Waiting to get him properly trained just makes it harder to retrain.