Any tips for a building confidence in my shy girl?

[HeatherA]

Some history - Veruca, our older F1b, the breeder recommended because she's more submissive naturally. I'm not a very experienced trainer so she suggested a dog that showed signs of being less willful.  She's easily trained, gentle and loving.. eager to please.  When we went to look for puppies we looked for the same personality traits.  We weren't woo'ed by the puppy that comes bounding up first, barking and jumping up.  Violet was the sweet little girl that was content to just sit next to my son and snuggle.  She wasn't the most timid in the litter, she would come to you if you made noises and got her attention (she came to check me out and get some loving.)  She had a sister that wouldn't do that.. so she was somewhere in between the two sisters not the most aggressive, not the most timid.

At home the girls wrestle and play, climb over each other, growl and steal each others toys playfully.  When my Moms new adoption came to my house - Violet bounded around and playfully tussled with her.  Even when my Moms dog stiffened and didn't return the playfulness Violet was not deterred.  She bounded around and tried to get some play.  Violet is just over 3 months.  She's obviously very comfortable and confident in her own environment.  You would NEVER call this girl timid at home.

Now... at obedience class is a completely different story.  There are about 8 dogs of various ages.  Violet sits next to the wall and just watches. The trainer says she's terrified.  I don't think I agree?  She doesn't have her tail between her legs, she isn't cowering, she's not shaking, she doesn't show her stomach, she doesn't pee, bark or growl.  I would say she is cautious and unsure of what to think, as a Mom ;)  She sits back and watches.. and even with high reward treats she only barely participates.  (she has to be lured out and then will sit on command)

At home, I rarely see this cautious behavior.  The closest thing I see is when my neighbor has his VERY large and aggressive dogs outside that bark like they want to tear you apart, she doesn't want to go in the yard.  (These dogs are so nasty, threatening and uncontrolled we put RAILROAD ties along the fence to make sure they didn't bite our kids under the fence or come through to our yard.)  I've had to walk her into the far opposite corner away from the threatening dogs.

Some additional factors::: My husband believes part of the problem is that she is not used to a leash yet, and she doesn't like car rides yet.  So for our part we're having her wear a leash and drag it around to get comfortable with it.  Another part of the issue is that she intimidated by him - which is why he's taking her.  Both dogs and my mothers dog are intimidated by him so he's trying to learn how to make his body language more dog-friendly.

Next week I am hoping to go with them (have to arrange a sitter for the kids so we can both go).. but I wanted to tap the wealth of advice and see how others have handled this?  Any one else have a naturally shy Doodle?  How do you build confidence and address the shyness?

[Adina P]

From your description she does not sound terrified as your trainer says, but without being there to SEE her who knows what your trainer is seeing. Have you asked her what cues or body language is translating to 'terrified' in her assessment? I'd be very curious to read what she says.

I guess I don't think "shy" is a bad thing unless it interferes with her ability to live life and do things. It sounds like for the most part she seems to be doing fine. To me, personality traits that make training a little more difficult are just that...you keep training through them and most likely will come out the other end just fine.

I strongly believe that GOOD training will, in and of itself, build a dog's confidence in the world and his/her owner. Through your consistency you show her that there's nothing to fear while she is working (thus making those things she works around lose their power over her) and the world is fairly predictable (because you make it that way).

[HeatherA]

My husband sent me a picture - of her just sitting down. The trainer says she's "shutting down" because she doesn't want to engage other dogs, isn't trying to bark/play. She's reading that as Violet being terrified. I will be there next week, hopefully I will either witness it and can ask her what she's seeing as terrified, or can help alleviate her stress/uncertainness by being there. I will definitely ask next week when I am there!

[Adina P]

I don't think stress is always bad....but it depends on the dog, the situation, and the severity of the stress (about which we can only guess). Think of the kid in school that gets stressed about speaking in front of his class...we could just say 'well little Timmy gets very stressed speaking up front so we won't ever make him do it because we don't want to cause stress'. Or we can help Timmy learn how to deal with the prospect of speaking up front because it is a valuable skill and will help him in the long run and increase his confidence in himself for mastering such a difficult task and learning the world doesn't end when he has to give a speech.

So the trainer has decided your pup is 'terrified'. Correct assessment or not...what is she going to do about it? What does she want you to do?

[Adina P]

Just some more of my thoughts. Feel free to toss 'em if they don't seem right to you.

I see stress and fear as another 'distraction' in a way. Obviously severe fear and stress is not desirable because dogs don't learn real well under extreme stress or fear--they are focused on survival.

But some level of mild to moderate stress isn't necessarily a bad thing. The point of an obedience class, to me, is: group motivation, group accountability and learning to work around other dogs/people, having a chance to demonstrate the fruit of your labor in the last week, learning about new homework. So when I reread your post and found this sentence: She sits back and watches.. and even with high reward treats she only barely participates. (she has to be lured out and then will sit on command) ... my initial reaction is that this is a training issue and if you're not sure how to solve it, this trainer MUST help you figure out how to fix it. What good is this class/trainer if she can't help you help your dog DO (rather than watch)?

If you've been doing your homework as assigned and your dog won't perform the assigned task...then your trainer needs to step in and help and tell you what to do differently. Maybe your dog needs more work in a similar environment. Maybe you need to move farther away from the other dogs. Maybe she needs to demonstrate how she would work Violet so that there was no backing out of the work (by sitting back and watching and not responding to commands) or the work was broken down into smaller steps...or whatever to help Violet succeed.

[HeatherA]

I understand and agree with what you're saying -- and thats where the issue comes in that my husband is being trained as much as she is. We're both new at this, to some extent... but I went through training with Veruca and have read up a lot more then he has. It wouldn't occur to him to say "Okay - what do I need to do here now?" and that will hopefully be something I can address when I am there.

I don't agree (with the trainer) that Violet is terrified. I've seen how she is, I know her personality. I know my trainer has Jack Russel terriers and she also told me Veruca was too submissive. They certainly aren't barky, yappy, jumping Jack Russels. I wonder how much of her training opinion is skewed by what she considers "normal" from her own experience.

I had considered finding another trainer, and I will explore that more after this class to further both girls. Time constraints (I'm due with baby #4 end of Oct) I wanted to get Violet the experience for socialization at a young age. I just want to make the most out of this class if I can.

[Adina P]

I see your reason for having hubby attend class better now. Is he also able work her regularly between classes?

[HeatherA]

Yes, he does that - at night is our alone time with the dogs. We crate train, and our kids are in bed by 8PM week nights. We're usually up until at least midnight, so in that time we have alone time with the dogs. He will work on her sit/stay in little 5 minute intervals. He is also having her sit and wait for her food, etc. Just constant reinforcement.

[HeatherA]

They've had two classes so far. First class when Violet watched and sat, she told my husband to come back with higher value treats (chicken) and to keep the leash on her all the time around the house - let her drag it around. A week later,Violet was still the same. She stayed after class and tried to get her to walk on the leash with her (the trainer) she used a squeaky toy hoping that would get interest but it didn't work. She ended up dragging her on the leash according to my husband.

So, that is what has happened so far. Advice to get her more used to the leash, and the suggestion to bring higher value treats to lure her interest more.

We're leaving the leash on, and occasionally picking it up and walking back and forth with her on leash to get her used to it.

[HeatherA]

I want to mention - Violet is VERY eager to please at home, and well behaved at class. With treats she watches and waits patiently, she sit/stays better then Veruca.. and she's already hitting the bells to go outside with regularity. She's only about 14 weeks now. She is a very biddable personality, watches us for commands. She isn't hard to train.. she just seems shy? I don't know how else to describe it. When a new situation comes in front of her she approaches it cautiously and watches to see how things will play out.

[Adina P]

Does she come to class pretty starved? That might help too. Literally reduce her earlier meal and no other meal until after class. One problem I have with all-positive-no-corrections type training is the huge push toward 'higher and higher and higher' value treats. If you can't bribe her with chicken...then steak...if not steak then what? I think some dogs just aren't going to be bribed in all situations.

[HeatherA]

I generally feed the girls at 8am/8pm. The class is at 7pm so she hasn't had dinner yet. When she got home from class last night she wolfed down her food, so she was definitely hungry.

The problem I have found with corrective training is finding a trainer that does it right. Clearly it's hard enough to find a reward based trainer that does it right, I don't want to traumatize my dog because the trainer has shown me something that DOES terrify her. You know? I am way too new at this to know the difference, I need someone that does actually know what they are doing to TRAIN me how to train my dog. Are there any good sites for trainer reviews? :)

[Adina P]

Don't know any such sites and wouldn't put much value in them unless I knew who was reviewing the trainers. It would have to be people who followed the training plan to a tee and STILL thought it was bad. Otherwise reviews from people who didn't finish a class or didn't like the trainer might be inaccurate because these people never fully 'understood' what to do or didn't listen attentively enough to do it correctly. You know what I mean?

I train on my own and discuss training issues and questions almost exclusively with trainers I know that use the same method I love and use. (This is why you'll rarely see me asking training questions here. Nobody on DK (that I know of) has an indepth knowledge of the specific program I use).

Anyway, if I were to choose a trainer I would choose a trainer who has put multiple obedience titles on his/her dogs. A trainer who has given multiple titles to multiple dogs knows what she's doing--it is HARD work. AND...You can't get a dog to a high level of obedience if it's scared to death...scared dogs don't look good or perform well in the ring. I would also seek out a local kennel club or obedience club and ask them for references.

For now, I'd stick to this class and see it through. And then decide if you think you'd want to continue with this trainer.