Biting & Bruising my sons!!!

[Chris & Boys]

Fozzy Bear is now almost 7 months old. When he wants to play with Boomer, he grabs him at the base of the tail or by the ears and tugs. Unfortunately, when he wants to play with my sons, he grabs at thier arms and legs, mostly. Well, his jaw is so strong that he is leaving bruises and scratches on thier arms. I thought he would be over this mouthing thing by now. I am worried that if this continues, I will have a serious problem on my hands. He knows what "no biting" means, but when he wants to play he just won't quit. He will stop but just bite again and again. I am wondering if a electric training collar will help? I need quick solutions, this is getting totally out of control.

[Chris & Boys]

Great idea. I am having the boys carry treats in their pockets so when they tell him "NO BITING", and he stops, that they treat him. and have time to redirect him.

He has been through training, he knows all the commands, he obeys and then goes right back to what the bad behavior. He will begin training classes again in August after the boys are done with baseball.

I have tried gating, he jumps them. We always have bullysticks around for him to chew on, which has worked great for us, except when he got to a really great pair of shoes.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out as soon as I get back to the thread.

[Debbie, Brianna and Duncan]

I think you miss understood what I meant. Redirecting is getting that bone in his mouth instead of your sons. Not a treat reward. Treats are great when training him with the basic commands. For the biting...and the Great Pair of Shoes, CALMLY and right away get the bone to his mouth and take away the shoes DO NOT yell at him (he will associate bone=bad), but say "This is what you chew" SMILE over and over again until he gets it. He will get it wrong often, just pop that bone in his mouth...'this is what you chew'. Just having the bones there in the house for 'him to decide' is not the idea. He will choose the kids/shoes/toys ....he is happy to see them and he is a puppy. Remember when he was a Little guy at their ankle level....they probably reinforced his behavior over and over, by bending over and getting him really excited, Right? Well, now they need to work with him to change this behavior which now is now all of a sudden inappropriate because of his size. Something quick to try too,

Have the boys tell YOU whenever they will be greeted by him. YOU put a leash on your dog, put him in a "sit command" then let the boys come to see the dog. When he breaks or starts to jump when he sees them, STEP ON THE LEASH....put him back in the sit or down, when he breaks STEP ON THE LEASH over and over....treat and reward every time when he gets if right. Be consistent and he will understand.

[Chris & Boys]

Are you serious??? If the boys have to tell ME every time they anticipate that FB will be greeting them, I would either need to kennel them whenever I have to cook, clean, do yardwork, do laundry, or to make it easier whenever I am not at work and am awake OR, I could just shadow the kids and do nothing else. I mean, he can do this when they walk out of the bathroom, which may be a little difficult for them to anticipate unless I ask them to peek out the door before exiting.

If this is what it takes, I give up. Anyone want a 6 month old GD"?

[Debbie, Brianna and Duncan]

Yes I am serious!! I was hoping to encourage you to take steps forward, not push you over. Giving away your doodle, ARE YOU serious? that would be sad. Anyway, this is training and it is management. Management is tricky and can be done so everyone is safe, happy and most important, on the same page. Yes that means having your boys on board with you and what you decide and how you will go about accomplishing the task of getting your dog through this period of his training. So if they need to call you when they enter, YES. So you can help guide them in the right way to handle this puppy. Tether him to you if you need to. Hey, I am a mom too, and I made the choice to have dogs. I accept the responsibility and I vowed to do whatever it takes! you said Baseball season comes first? Well, my girls dance, soccer, gymnastics, swimming and they have two camps for arts and theatre....call my trainer, I am in at least two or one class every session and attend playgroups....I supervise then manage if AND I do get my chores, etc done.... I have three triplet girls and one 2 yrs older...when they where first born, I had two rescue German Shepherd in the house and an old grumpy nippy dog....I managed my house and supervised when they got to be with the dogs......I took my girls to a training class BEFORE I bought my doodles so they knew the right way to pet handle and train a puppy. I adopted after and both at the 6 month to a year mark, both of my doodles in the same stages as yours..........good luck, and I hope you find that the help here from others is helpful to you and encourage you to be patient, consistent in your training and loving to your dog. He sure looks like a happy playful GD. Good luck

[Chris & Boys]

No - I am not serious, I was being sarcastic. You sure are a busy lady. I don't know how you do all of that as a single working mother.

[Debbie, Brianna and Duncan]

I am not single and yes my life is still work...I accept the responsibility. I get my paycheck in the form seeing my kids learn life lessons of hard work pays off. We love our family and all animals included. Animals deserve good loving homes, and moms and dads are the ones running the show! and ensure it dosn't run a muck. ps, you can not tell sarcasm in this format so no one would know you weren't serious....and take a look at petfinder or ask the people involved in rescue how many dogs are given up because the owners did not think ....then when the demand comes in to play, people go the easy route to make their live simpler. Yes I read your doodle was a rescue, I applaud you for doing this act of kindness.

[Adina P]

Tell Fozzy you'll call Child Protective Services on him if he doesn't stop! j/k

I agree that an e-collar might not be the right tool. However, to get an expert opinion email Lou Castle -- he is a well known e-collar expert/trainer and can steer you in the right direction. My guess is he'd say that UNLESS and UNTIL Fozzy has experience with the e-collar in obedience so he really understands what the correction means and how to stop it...it will probably be a bad idea. I've emailed Lou about several situations in which I was tempted to use an ecollar...some of them he said were okay (but I decided against it) and some he's warned were bad ideas. So he's honest and will give you a real assessment. Go to his website: http://www.LouCastle.com and click on 'email Lou' to get his email. He's always responded to me within a day or two.

Dogs and electricity are interesting I'm told...it IS possible for a dog to think that your boys caused the electric shock and respond with aggression. You also need to be VERY careful in choosing the right level of shock.... I'm just sharing this because I'm NOT against e-collars, but it's a good idea to have a professional evaluate its use and guide in the correct use so you don't end up with the opposite response to what you want.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Do not ...I repeat!.....DO NOT hit the dog or use an e-collar!..You will end up with either an aggressive dog or a neurotic, frightened,uncertain, unsocial dog if you do this!.......Everything that Lynne B told you is absolutely correct....redirect, turn your back and ignore..If he persists tell you children they should yelp ( like a puppy does when it's been hurt)...This immediately sends a strong message to the dog....Ever watch puppies play? If a puppy gets too rough with the bites or nips when playing with a littermate the recipient yelps and the aggressor immediately stops..He may only stop for a few moments and then re-engage but with consistency he will get the message that this is inappropriate behavior...You should all be making this sound, turn away and ignore everytime he does this......It has to be done repetatively and with consistency....eventually he will make the connection.

[Adina P]

I want to add that continued hard work in obedience will also help. I don't know if you've read my stories about Rosco...he WAS AN AWFUL BITER. Seriously...BAD. He left bruises and scratches and he hurt me pretty bad (much worse than what I imagined when I'd read about 'puppy nipping.')

He ONLY did it to me. ONLY to me.

All the stuff I'd read was virtually useless...because Rosco didn't respond to it or it made him get more riled up. I could yelp till I turned blue, but turning my back would only make him lunge after my back, butt, thighs, whatever. Honestly Rosco didn't stop till shortly after 1 year of age... I'm convinced that what lead to the ending of this was rigorous attention to obedience training.

Look at it this way...a trained dog will stop what he's doing to respond to a command, right? So if he starts to even get the 'look' in his eye that he wants to nip at your boys....all you'd have to do is say:

Fozzy...COME! Then Fozzy would come and sit in front of you and await his next mission. You could then tell him Fozzy...Down, Stay! and he would do it and have a moment to calm down until praised and then released for his GOOD behavior. So in essence, a dog done with training can be redirected and EXPECTED to obey rather than 'hoped' to obey. But he's young and that will take many more months of diligence in consistent training practice.

In the meantime, can you keep a leash on him (with the handle cut off) around the house so if he starts up you can pull him OFF your boys and in no uncertain terms tell him it is NOT okay and send him to his crate? Losing out on his fun consistently when he's doing inappropriate things will eventually get through.

[Karen & Lucy]

Chris, I know this nipping, mouthing puppy becomes very frustrating. I by no means know anything about training a puppy, but I can tell you what helped with me and Lucy. Lucy was a very mouthy puppy with very sharp puppy teeth. I read somewhere that when she does this to put my hand over her muzzle and hold it down and give a firm NO. I started that and at first as soon as I would let her go she would start again, and I would repeat it until she would redirect for me. I also would redirect her after doing that with something else to chew on and play with. I agree, you do have to stop this behavior now before Fozzy gets older. I also agree on the obedience trainging. That helped alot with other issues with Lucy too. I like the leash idea as well if you want to try that first. My DH, the non dog lover, was always wanting to get an e collar for misbehavior in the house and I would not do that. She has an invisable fence outside and that was bad enough the first time she got a correction from that. I could just imagine him zapping her for any little thing she did. Don't get me wrong, he is not a bad person, just does not know how to correct a dog in the right way. I wish you a lot of luck. I know you and those boys of yours love Fozzy. Just try these things and be firm with him and he will get the picture.

[Chris & Boys]

Adina - Roscoe sounds like he behaved how Fozzy does. He only does it to the boys, and yep when they turn their backs on him (which we use to keep him from jumping up on us when we get home), he attacks thier necks, backs , butt, etc.. And like you when he was younger, we also yelped til we were blue in the face. Like Karen, what worked at that point was putting our hands over his muzzle and tell him "NO BITE" . He is just getting so strong and big, the boys have a hard time getting to his muzzle without getting bit. This behavior is fairly new, within the last month. Maybe he is going through his teens a little early.

The pics don't show the bruising, I guess the flash fades it out.

[Adina P]

I know I've already written a few times =) But I totally FELT your frustration...personally when Rosco bit me like a monster. And I understand it is NOT pleasant and seems absolutely ridiculous to just 'stand there' and 'ignore' a 7 MONTH OLD NEARLY FULL GROWN DOG.. *I* was scared of Rosco...and I'm 5'7" tall...I can only imagine it's pretty scary to be a 9 or 11 y.o. boy when his giant puppy is biting his neck. HOW can a child be expected to stand there? I don't think it's reasonable to do so more than a few times before a child has had enough -- it takes the patience of an experienced adult to be consistent in a time like that.

Looking back I think what the whole IGNORE needs to involve is a COMPLETE separation from the dog. So not just stand there but LEAVE to where the dog can't reach you. Tell them to go into a room or walk outside and shut the door behind them. Ignoring has to be a dramatic event rather than passiveness. I think that is where the advice to "ignore" and just 'stand' there fails at times. It doesn't work for many because not everyone can 'put up' with the abuse from their doggy for multiple nips and scratches. For some situations it is asking too much of the humans and too little from the dog.

I DON'T agree with grabbing the muzzle or ANYTHING that would remotely resemble playing, wrestling or fighting back, not on moral grounds, but because it will only get him more excited. BELIEVE me I dealt with this from 9 weeks to 1 year old. IT did not help. I even held Rosco on his back in the infamous 'Alpha Roll' I'm pretty sure 10 full minutes (try timing that while thinking about a biting, fighting, puppy the whole time). It was unfair to Rosco and brought me to tears both because I felt bad for doing that to Rosco AND because I felt like a total failure--he was no more than 14 weeks old MAX at that time.

I also see from what you've written that your boys are NOT instigating the 'attack' and are merely walking by when it happens.

I think this is MORE need for Fozzy to wear a leash around the house and be completely supervised still while boys are around. Be the Momma Bear---tell him to "KNOCK IT OFF" (this is not a command) grab the leash and crate him. The gate obviously doesn't work because he can leap over it.

Another option if the leash he has on has a loop (which should only be on if you are supervising so it doesn't get caught on furniture and choke him as he tries to get away) is for either you or the boys to put the loop around the doorknob of the opposite side of a door and close the door. This means the boys and the dog are on the SAME side of the door but Fozzy is tied to the door knob on the other side (with door closed for security) and he can't reach the boys. AT THAT POINT they can turn their backs and ignore him actively (waiting for an opportunity to praise him for being calm) or just leave and get you so you can work on some training.

You also mentioned:
He has been through training, he knows all the commands, he obeys and then goes right back to what the bad behavior.

The question is can they tell him "Down, Stay" and will Fozzy stay until released? If not, if he breaks the STAY then he's not done being trained. Imagine if he DID stay until released...this would be a totally different story. So work toward FULL obedience. That's what I'm talking about when I asked about training. He needs continued, structured training sessions on a regular basis around light then moderate then heavy distractions over time. Get him to the point of SOLID obedience where he'll obey anywhere, off or on leash. Most people will not get there, but setting that as your goal will get you FARTHER than most people and your dog will obey amazingly well even if not perfectly in all places.

Sorry so long winded...this is one area in which I've been through A LOT and learned quite a bit. I remember the pain and frustration well. You CAN get through this.

P.S. I think there are situations and training needs for which the ecollar can work VERY well and can be quite humane. I am not against it as a tool. It is not my preference and I'd approach it with hesitation and only with the guidance of a pro. I know plenty of dogs whose owners use an ecollar and without any ill results or aggression, etc. But again, it really works better as part of obedience FIRST rather than solely as a deterrent. Plus when it's a punishment for contacting humans...it's a little iffy and that's why I highly recommend contacting Lou Castle in my previous post to you. He actually trains this way AND sells the collars---so I know if he's willing to advise ME against their use for some of the situations I've written to him about...he's NOT gonna try to pull one over on you solely for the sake of selling an ecollar. He seems like an honest guy to me. Contact him please before deciding.