Breeder or Puppy Mill

[Chris & Boys]

With the info on Almost Heaven posted the other day I wondered........how many kennels does a state allow a breeder to have? Where is the line drawn between breeder and mill operator? Do they just consider it a mill if the dogs are mistreated? What is the limit of dogs a responsible breeder should be breeding?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I guess it boils down to knowing who you are dealing with. The vetting doesn't mean much, and being an active member of the church, unfortunately, means less than nothing. As Jacquie has pointed out many times, the Amish are a very religious group, and look at their puppy mills. But if your friends actually saw paperwork for health testing on the parents, and an internet search turned up nothing...
There are some very good people here on DK who were similarly deceived. A common denominator in these cases was price. They knew who the good, reputable breeders were, and couldn't afford the prices, so they went looking on-line for cheaper breeders. We certainly don't want to go down that road again, lol. But for anyone else, between Jacquie, Adina and I, there are very few sources for doodles of which we are unaware. So from here out, you know where to inquire, lol.

[Adina P]

I know one BYB and the breeder's hubby is a pastor of a small church who sells pups way too young and does no health testing--and breeds several different mixes. Christianity does not lead to immunity from corruption. However, I can see how if someone appears to be a respectable person one would think at worst they'd be just ignorant breeders (breeding their pets without knowledge of health testing) but hard to conceive of the idea that they'd have a mill.

And yet...it happens, so we can't go by public reputation alone...we have to examine their breeding practices closely.

Karen, how do reputable, well known, pure breed breeders deal with folks who want to visit puppies. Obviously they can't just open up their home to anyone who wants to walk in. Is it application...then allowed on property?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think you have to ask them. I know Leslie has a video here of when she chose Halas, you can see her with Christine and all the puppies. Of course, at that point, one of the puppies was definitely Leslie's, and you would think the breeder could trust that this person wouldn't risk exposing her own puppy along with the rest of the litter to parvo, but still you see that given as the reason for not allowing the buyer to come onto the property, even when the puppy has been paid for.
With my last girl, she was paid for when we went to see her; she was not ready to leave her mother yet. We went back a couple of weeks later to bring her home. But I knew I was getting a puppy who had been sired by Am.Can.Ch. Rochambeau's Springsteen, lol, when I paid beforehand. I knew what he looked like, who owned him and where they were. He was also on the premises, along with the dam. That paperwork, and those parents, would have been pretty hard to fake.
I don't know, if I were a breeder, that I would allow just anyone who was curious to come traipsing through my place. It's a good question. If I were going to get a doodle puppy, I would start by asking people like Leslie, who dealt with a breeder who is known to me to begin with, and who I know has seen the breeders facilities. And go from there.

[Leslie and Halas]

Halas was already 5 1/2 weeks old when I got to visit, so it was only a few days before selection day. I think we had to take our shoes off, and we stayed in one room to visit the puppies. I think she told us to wear clean shoes anyway, because our shoes would still be in the yard, etc., and she asked us not to go to Petsmart or any place like that before we came to visit. I got to meet both parents, and got to see the mommy with the puppies, which was nice. I'm not sure exactly when our breeder lets people visit the puppies now, because I think all breeders are worried about parvo, but I think a lot of the good breeders will let you visit the facilities, even if you can't get too close to the puppies. That may not be ideal, if you can't see exactly where the puppies are, but at least you can get a general idea of the surroundings. And if you were researching a breeder before a litter was even born, I would think a good breeder would let you see more of the puppy areas.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Chris....It's the "God fearin, good ol'boy, bible wielding,self professed Christians" hiding behind their "church going" public personnas that are operating some of the most horrendous mills below the Mason Dixon Line....Off the top of my head I can think of at least 3 that I know of that fit that bill and are breeding doodles along with anywhere between 4-10 other poodle mixes along with them....(Karen you know who I am talking about and I'll leave it at that)....The particular breeder that I am thinking of had everyone fooled including other breeders based on her devotion to God........My point being that just because someone goes to church doesn't mean that they are an upstanding citizen
or an ethical, reputable dog breeder....and vice versa....That certainly shouldn't be a factor when researching and determining if a breeder is reputable......

[Jeannine]

STOP!!! I cannot breath anymore I laugh so loud I wake up my girls...!

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

There you go again, ticking off people. The fact is that nothing is proof of being a good breeder or a puppy mill except to do your research, GO THERE. I have to question breeders who won't let you see their property and dogs. I have always picked out my own std poodles. I don't get this matching business. I know all the reasons, bring in stuff on shoes, illnesses, etc. but if they won't it makes me think they may be hiding something. Maybe they are.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

I said AND" vice versa!".....lol....Oh COME ON!.... All you have to do is look at the news everyday to see some of the corruption and hypocracy hidden behind all religions in all areas!.....Why would dog breeding be any different?

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

It's really ironic that 1,000's of people have gone there over the years, 1,000's have purchased dogs from there with no complaints. 1,000's of people have done research and still purchased there. All of a sudden one worker gets on her high horse and finally gets a conscious and reports the abuse and everyone is just suppose to fall under the bus and go along with what is said. You are use to dealing with this stuff, general public is not...general public does not always get involved or can just drop their life at this time to do rescue or see what is really going on in all aspects of life. What famous North American landmark is constantly moving backwards, do you really care that the answer is Niagra Falls, not really, why not, for the same reasons not everyone researchs things, or cares to be involved at the time. Knowing how disease's can be transmitted I don't honestly think I would want a bunch of people walking through my kennel with new born puppies around that are not innoculated. To me it sounded reasonable, and the pups and Mom and Dad were seen in a waiting room. Even if your taken back and shown this is Dog Mom and this is Dog Dad their names are Mo Jo and Bo Jo...does that really mean they are who they say they are. How do you really know? Facts are you don't..unless they are the only two dogs present with the pups on the property. I know of other AKC kennels in PA and they are not Amish or Menonite, or church going...but yet they switch their papers and you never know for sure if you have the right pup with it's AKC papers, because they have breeding contracts and they can accidentally mix pups from different litters, AKC has done nothing to them ...why...cause you can't prove it. Not saying anyone here on DK is that way...but it does happen out there. So going there is not always the truth, and you still can wind up with problems. I'm only posting what I see as the whole picture, not trying to upset anyone or piss anyone off, but these things can happen even doing the best of research....

[Adina P]

You are not p****** us off =) You have a right to your questions and to share your thoughts.

I just think that if someone used a checklist of criteria before choosing a breeder, they would do much better. If ALL aspects are considered...most bad breeders will be ruled out:

-- Health testing and PROOF of it that you can verify with a copy of the tests and online
-- Meeting parent dogs and seeing that they are cared for AND well trained
-- Seeing the premises and where puppies are raised
-- Checking with other owners (not fool proof on its own)
-- Checking with other breeders that are well known to check on reputation
-- Doing an online search for the breeder's name and program name

I'm probably missing something...but a puppy mill is HIGHLY unlikely to pass all these tests. I've written to a number of breeders with nice sites that listed NO testing...NOT ONE of them has ever done a good job of saying WHY they have no testing. They always blow it off as 'my dogs go to the vet who said they are healthy.'

I think the ones who outright forge test papers are virtually non-existent. If you have a photo of the parent dogs online...and you MEET the dogs whose looks match...and you have the pedigree and test papers...you can check out quite a bit.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

OK this is supposed to go under Adina's post about health testing: I agree totally.

When looking for my pup I went by breeder reputation/rating on the goldendoodle reccommended breeders.

On her site she talks about the dam "Health Testing: CERF normal, Hips and elbows
OVC normal , VWD by parentage"

She talks about the sire "OFA good hips, normal patellas, VWD clear through parentage, normal CERF exam and is PRA clear through optigen labs.

There are pictures of the well kept parents.

But most importantly I verified this all from a local lady who had a dog from this breeder and did the footwork ahead of time and was actually there,

She does the health testing, first vaccines, dewormings,spay/neuter, tattoo, microchip, health guarantee, socializing, lifetime of support etc...

You definitely can weed out the responsible, "good" breeders from the bad. You just have to know what you are looking for.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

Amen!! Hallelujah!!