Does Anyone Have A Dog Reactive Doodle?

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Those in the training group know that Murph is very dog reactive.  It's something that we've been working on for over a year.  Today we were talking to our trainer about what may have caused this initially and he mentioned that he's now working with quite a few Doodles and none of them have the same type of reactiveness that we see in Murphy.  He said they are usually excitable and "react" when they see another dog because they just want to get to that dog to play.  There is nothing dominant of aggressive in this....they are just pulling or lunging out of pure excitement. With training he said this is very easy to correct.  Murphy's reaction is completely different....he is fearful of the other dog and so he has been reacting negatively and even with aggression.  He has no interest in getting to the other dog to "play"....there is no wagging tail. Over the past few weeks he's been able to walk by other dogs without a reaction but it is so apparent that he is very afraid.  He tries to get as close to me as he possible can....which I can't allow because that won't help his confidence at all in the long run.  He is great in Daycare which is a whole different context for him.  Most importantly I am not there, and there are lots of dogs so he can't fixate on any one.  We've been trying to determine what happened to Murph to cause this, and maybe there was nothing....it could just be "hard wired".  We'll probably never know.  I'm just wondering if anyone else has a Doodle with this problem.  I'm putting the discussion here versus in the training group just to try to get a broader audience.  After our discussion today with the trainer I started to think that I've never heard of another Doodle here on DK with the same problem as Murphy. 

[Jennifer,Chloe & Myla]

Jane-you do everything possible to help Murph and I know it must be frustrating to do all this training and still have a fearful dog. I just wanted to say that he's so lucky to have you, most people would have given up a long time ago. You are a special doodle mom. Now after reading Karen's description, I really feel for you guys. I've been worried about Chloe, but we can usually take her out of the situation with no problem.

Chloe was the happiest dog in the neighborhood, everyone knew her and always stopped to greet her and if they had a dog with them she would roll over on her back. One time a little puppy she did not know saw her do this and crawles right on top of her and sat there! No issue. Ever since Myla came along, Chloe's personality changed towards other dogs. I fully blame this on 2 things-first, the way she is walked by DH she's never on a loose leash I could just scream that he's doing this to her! He does what he does. Second is Myla-she came into the house and was very dominant even as a puppy, Chloe just backed down and let her take over. If Chloe wants to jumo on the bed and Myla is already up there she will jump at Chloe, growl, etc. Chloe is afraid to jumo up there. Myla also jumps the second Chloe moves to "HERD" her. She has to see what she's doing and if Chloe grabs a toy, Myla will snatch it out of her mouth or wait until Chloe looks away and jump up and snatch it. So Chloe gets bullied by Myla. The problems started on her walk she used to go to the ground like a cat and lay there until another owner and dog approached, they could be a block away and she will lay there waiting. She used to play with the dogs and now she waits for the dog to get right up to her and lunges in their face and snaps at them! So then DH started not letting her greet other dogs but he also has a tight leash which I believe agitates her more. She's normally ok with smaler dogs but she has something against black labs-she goes nuts! Then you have the people who say, it's ok, I have dogs, etc. Then Chloe snaps and we're like told you so stupid! I literally have come home in tears because when DH tells people that she's a MEAN dog sometimes it kills me. She's not! Sometimes she's fine if they don't walk right up to her, if she's given some time to adjust she can do ok.

I know this is minimal to what you are going through but spring is coming and I used to be able to walk a dog on each side and I'm not sure this can happen anymore, I wouldn't have control over Chloe if a dog approaches her. She has had a couple of dogs off leash come running after her and DH on a walk, maybe that's why she's changed?? Anyway, you are not alone and your case is much more serious and I'm so happy you have the patience and resources to help him! I really hope that we can get a home trainer someday soon.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks, Jennifer.  I'm sorry that this has started with Chloe, and I do know how you feel.  One hint though...try not to let her lay down while another dog is approaching.  I learned this yesterday.  I saw another dog do this as Murph and I were approaching, and I at first thought it was submission.  My trainer explained that this dog was waiting to attack.  The owner just let the dog lay there, and as we passed he "sprung into action"...lunging and barking at Murphy.  My trainer said the owner should have not allowed the dog to lie down....he needed to correct and keep right on moving.  I'm thinking you may have already stopped this behavior.  It may also help to try and stop Myla's "bullying" whenever you see it....although you probably do that already.  I have to watch Murph all the time or he would definitely try to dominate Guinness.  Good luck....let's keep each other posted on our progress.  We'll get there!

[Jennifer,Chloe & Myla]

OK, that other dog you saw yesterday is EXACTLY what Chloe is doing. (I keep her walking or go the other way, sometimes she's stubborn and we have to actually tug at her to move My DH however still lets her do it-I will tell him what the trainer said)

As far as Myla, it seems like we are always shouting for her and blocking her don't know how else to do it. I just had them outside in the fresh snow and as soon as Chloe stuck her head out the door she was jumping on her side and growling. I think the best thing would be for us to take them to separate training classes, before they were in the same class, unless we could find an affordable home trainer.

Thanks for the advice.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

What is most interesting to me is that Murphy (and Amy's Ollie) are ALDs from breeders who are considered "reputable". Not the best breeders in the world, for sure, but certainly not puppy mills or BYBS.

I attribute a lot of JD's behavior with other dogs to the fact that he was originally purchased in a pet store, so we know he came from a puppy mill and had no socialization whatsoever and not even a normal puppy experience, interacting with his mother and littermates. They were all in small cages. And of course, the trip in a big truck to the pet store experience didn't help, either. Then I have no idea what occurred during his first year with the original owner, but given his extreme lack of socialization or exposure to anything, the pattern of not knowing how to act with other dogs continued until I got him.

But, there's Murph, who came to you as a baby. And I'm sure there must be other pet store dogs here who are perfectly fine with other dogs.

So I have to think that while nature and nurture both play a role, nature trumps nurture in this case.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Certainly in people there seems to be a lot of "inborn" anxiety disorders. There also is a familial tendency but that could still be nature or nurture, since fearful parents can transmit their fears to their children.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I just saw this....I had asked Amy about Ollie's background.  It is pretty clear to me that Murph is fear/reactive, so what is it that is making him fearful?  I am correcting the behavior (manifestation of the fear), but not the fear itself.  If it's an irrational fear, then maybe there is no way to address it.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Reading through this whole discussion was very interesting. Both my dogs are generally fine with each other and other dogs in almost all circumstances but we have had a few incidents. Once a neighbor came into my yard with her lab who attempted to attack Luca without provocation, although there probably were balls lying about. She had to put the lab on her leash and she left soon thereafter.

Then some months ago, a rescue dog, who the doodles had not met, came to visit in our yard with his owner, who the doodles had met. Luca started growling and might have gone after him. I had to put Luca in his crate. I learned that it's best to meet on neutral ground.

Then not long ago we met a poodle mix of some kind, I forget what exactly, while all the dogs were on leash in the park just walking around. I heard a growl, not sure whose dog was growling but I though it was Luca, and I quickly ended that little meet up.

One time, when I still attempted dog parks, a wild young dog was there. He started pestering Calla, who was near me and who is generally a passive dog. At one point she turned on this other dog and snapped at him, which I'm quite sure was fear engendered. We hurriedly left.

So I think all dogs can have the occasional problem. But we meet lots of dogs, ranging from tiny to big, on our walks, without incident and I have and hope to continue to do so.

I think you are doing a great job with Murphy although he, like the rest of us, may never be perfect.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Calla's behavior at the dog park was perfectly appropriate and desirable. In fact, that's what you sometimes look for in a home dog when you bring a less-than-well-mannered dog in as a foster or potential sibling. The existing dog should be able to enforce reasonable boundaries. It's very helpful for the new dog as well as the one who was there first.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I agree and didn't blame Calla bit. But I didn't want it to go further. The poor large GSD youngster had a prong or choke on, I don't remember which, while running among other dogs , which seemed very dangerous to me also. It was clear his owner had no control and not much experience.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks so much, F.  I'm not trying for perfect...really.  I'm just looking for him to be balanced, calm, and without fear.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Spud is reactive in the car.  If we drive by a walker, bicyclist, or even sit  next to someone at the light, he just might go off.  Crazy! 

We do not use a seat belt.  That would probably help.  Because Starlit was so petrified to be left in a parked car and we would find her in the wheel wells when we returned we decided against seat belts.  She would have hung herself with one of those.  But now, it may be a good idea.  We do try some other training techniques. More so recently.

But back to the reactive dog.  Who knows why or what they think.  I do think, after three years of age,  the dogs change in some behaviors.  Some mellow, some become more protective

I don't think you and Karen have the only dog reactive dogs.  Spud is very friendly, but there are some dogs who  he just does not like.  Some he will not greet.  Some he just wants to play with.  Maybe their butts smell funny?  I don't know.  But I don't think all dogs like all dogs.  Similar to people.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I wonder the same thing about there being something about some dogs that a dog may just not like. And why not? It's true for us and certain people. Of course for dogs it may be related to being neutered or not, or size or how they smell : )