Dog training philosophies

[Stacy]

I’ve had this dialogue running through my head for a while, and I would love to be able to have a discussion. Purely theoretical. I think I’ve brought it up before, but I feel that, while there are a lot of opinions, we often don’t get into the *why* we hold the opinions that we do. And that’s what I would like to delve into.

I follow three trainers on the internet. Two are APDT dog trainers. Purely positive. One of them is the trainer that I hired for Maggie. He also has a background in neuropsychology. I think he is the right type of trainer for Maggie. The other trainer I follow calls himself a balanced trainer. He uses an e-collar to train dogs. Maggie ate his book. That will tell you what she thinks of that! But he has amazing success with dogs who have failed a lot of other trainers. Not all of the dogs, but a significant number come in to him with bites, human and dog, on their record and problems that, if not addressed, spell the end of these dogs lives. And I’ve seen his videos of these dogs turning things around. Dogs who come in clearly aggressive, wearing muzzles and trying to eat everyone who, in a matter of days are attentive, healing, and able to moderate their behavior. 


The balanced trainer gets a lot of hate from the positive reinforcement trainers. And I’m still not sure why. I see the dogs with their e-collars at the park. And they look like happy well adjusted dogs. They don’t look like they’re afraid of their owners. That bond doesn’t seem to be hurt by the training methods. And they use a lot of positive reinforcement too, but the balanced trainer’s opinion is that there are limitations to training when the dogs don’t have consequences for their choices. And that we are harming them by not having clear expectations and boundaries. I see a lot of parallels between the way we parent children and dogs, but that’s probably a different discussion.

My dad has a good friend who is an e-collar trainer. He actually trained my brothers nutty German shorthair. Their theory for Maggie’s crate aversion is to put her in the crate with the e-collar, get her to settle and then correct her for the behavior where she tries to get out. (Don’t worry, I don’t listen to much of what my dad says - I don’t like his politics either.) I can see that backfiring with a dog who then thinks that the crate is a shock box. At the same time I sort of see it as a thing that could work, but something I’m not willing to try with Maggie. The positive trainer’s theory of putting treats in the crate and hoping that she gets used to it doesn’t work either. And maybe Maggie is just a dog who can’t be crated. Since we seem to have figured out a work around for it I’m okay with that. But I still feel like having a dog who is comfortable in a crate is a really good thing.

Anyway, I sort of drifted. I guess what it comes down to is that I see a lot of people who don’t like the e-collars. They will tell you how much they don’t like the e-collars. But I don’t see a lot of good solid arguments for *why* they don’t like them. And I would really like to just have a conversation about what people think about the subject.

Thanks! Stacy

[Stacy]

Tethering them to us really is a good thing. I should try that again now that Maggie is more comfortable with me. I hope Charlie is better soon. Two weeks is a long time!

[Amy and Annabelle]

I have to say I'm not a fan of shock collars. For one I think there is too much room for an accidental shock. While you might assume it is still on low vibrate, it might well be on high shock. Plus I think you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar.

When I was researching trainers for Annabelle, I came across Bark Busters trainers. I think they have trainers in most states. Anyway I ended up not going with them, but if I had it to do over again I probably would.  After establishing you are the leader of the pack, they use natural methods like voice control. If I remember correctly it was you learn to speak dog. Anyway I wasn't that impressed with the trainer I did go with. He used prong collars in his training and no treat rewards, only verbal. But that wasn't why I wasn't impressed. Part of it might have been judgmental, as he reeked like an ashtray. 

I also think training is an ongoing project, that never ends. We still train maybe 15-30 minutes a week. Now that the weather is warming up and we will be out walking more, we are focusing on that. 

[Stacy]

One of my friend's dad is the Bark Busters trainer for this area. She still lives with her parents and her dog is kind of a mess. It wasn't a ringing endorsement for him. The ability to train dogs and training your own isn't mutually exclusive, but I think the dogs that live with the trainer have a responsibility to step it up a notch. The trainer I work with isn't part of one of the big groups. But everywhere I went they endorsed him, even when I wasn't actively looking for a recommendation. I felt like it was a sign. 

I feel like prong collars aren't that different than the e-collars. They're both aversive tools that are meant to get the dogs attention. I hear you about operator error with the collar, but I still think if I can use a harness to get the same effect when going for a walk, why not? I know the real obedience people think that a harness is cheating, but it works for us. 

I definitely agree that training is something that never ends. Practice is so important. When Maggie looks at me like, "what do we do next?" I feel like she loves me, and I think it helps both of us to come together and become a real team.

[Amy and Annabelle]

Good to know about your friends dad. No that isn't a ringing endorsement for Bark Busters. I used the prong collar strictly for the training class 2 years ago. But I haven't used it during our training sessions since then. We never used it for walking. She is always in a harness when we walk. She wears the same harness for riding in the car hooked in her seatbelt. Makes it easy.

[Stacy]

I do like the harness. I think Maggie would walk nicely even with a buckle collar. But sometimes the squirrels tease her and she feels the need to chase them. I don't like the idea of her strangling herself when she goes all nutty. So the harness works well. 

[Amy and Annabelle]

Rollerbladers are what Annabelle would love to go chasing after. We still have to stop and do a sit/stay when one goes flying by us. I can tell she is using every ounce of restraint she has to sit there like a good girl. To get her to that point took a lot of training with chicken, her only food motivator. She is as stubborn as a mule. Always has been, but at least now she relunctantly obeys me. I saw the set-up in the breeders home for the mom and puppies, so it looked like she should have had a great start. But she seemed totally un-socialized when I got her at 10 weeks with no bite inhibition. My husband bought me some Kevlar gloves. Potty training and crate training were the only things I had it easy on with her. Girl has a bladder of steel. I had to have a private trainer come to the house to help me with her. I liked that trainer. If she had been a bigger dog where my safety would have been a concern, I'm not sure what extent I would have gone, like with e-collar training. There was a huge Lab mix in Annabelle's last training class. It was almost like he was raised in the wild. His owner had no control over him. They did end up putting an e-collar on him with the trainers guidance. It seemed to be working. So I think they have their place with certain dogs.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

We trained Murphy not to react to the rollerbladers by having our trainer (who was a young guy) actually roller blade with him running by his side.  Murph love this and it ended is reactions.

[Amy and Annabelle]

Maybe I will ask my son-in-law if he wants to take Annie rollerblading.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I really don't think there is a "one size fits all" for dog training.  Dogs are all different and they don't all learn the same way IMO.  My mini ALD has always been a sweet, smart, confident dog.  He loves praise and he loves treats so he is super easy to motivate.  The one challenge with Guinness was that he wants to do "what he wants" when on a leash....and he's stubborn about it.  Even now there are times when he starts to pull on a structured walk and I immediately stop and wait with him in a sit.  He hates that so after a couple of times he's like "okay fine I'll walk by your side".  Then after a little while I let the leash out and let him smell and lead the way....but it's always on my terms.  He breezed through his Therapy training and I thought this was just how dogs were.  Then came Murphy who we adopted from DRC at 10 weeks.  He is the dog who really taught me so much about his behavior and how to teach him to be calm and balanced.  I truly believe that until you are dealing with  a dog in a calm state of mind it is very difficult to teach them anything.  I had to teach him to trust me and to understand that I would respect him....but that is a two way street and I was going to insist that he respect me as well.  He needs clear expectations that are enforced every single time....no exceptions.  Because of Guinness's temperament he has lots of privileges that Murphy can't have because he becomes dominant.  When he first came to us we let him on our bed...until the time he tried to bite my husband as he was getting into the bed.  That was the end of allowing him in a position like that.

Leadership is also key IMO.  I don't think my guys think of me as their "boss" but they have learned that I have expectations and I'm going to be sure they follow them.  They are never allowed on the stairs when I am.  If they forget and start up I just have to turn and look at them and they go right back to the bottom and wait.  This is because over and over I told them "wait" and if they didn't I'd bring them right back down and we'd try again.  I never "corrected" just showed them what I was expecting.  This is a little thing, but it's important to me because I really don't want them running past me or my son on the stairs.  Murphy has always been required to lay down in the back seat when he's in the car.  I can't allow him to sit up and look out because he barks and reacts if he sees dogs.  I can't tell you how many times I had to pull over and put him back in his down/stay....but now it's automatic and he never breaks his down.  Guinness because he isn't reactive gets to sit and look out the window.  Again, no corrections were involved....just lots of repetition and total consistency until it became a "habit". 

So that brings me to e-collars.  I have learned that collars are only tools....the collar won't train the dog.  Guinness walks on just a buckle collar with no problems.  Murph was incredibly leash reactive, especially with dogs or bikers.  He would totally lose it...barking and lunging.  It was horribly frightening.  I worked with a few trainers, and finally found one who really made me understand what was going on with Murph.  He is fear reactive and collar corrections when he was in the state were useless...he didn't even feel them.  We were desperate after he dragged me on our local bike path chasing a roller bladder and I ended up with lots of cuts and scrapes...I was terrified.  I called the trainer and said I wanted to use the e-collar.  He did not agree but said if I insisted he would at least show me how to use it.  We tried it and learned that he was absolutely right...Murph didn't seem to even feel the shock even when it was turned up to medium.  In that fear state all the correction did was accentuate his reaction.  That's when we realized that we owed it to Murphy to stop forcing him into situations where he was incapable of being comfortable enough to follow our commands.  So now we avoid situations where he is going to have to pass other leashed (or unleashed) dogs and we will be forced into having to do serious corrections.  We take him to parks which are open enough for me to be able to turn him around and go in the opposite direction if another dog is approaching....and we walk on the paths where there are no bikers.  This has made a huge difference.  Our walks now are calm and Murph walks perfectly with no nonsense.  I somehow think he realizes that I am recognizing the things that are upsetting for him and not putting him in that position.  He kind of is my "special needs Doodle" and while I teach him what I'm expecting I'm recognizing the parameters that he is dealing with at the same time.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I was hoping you would comment, Jane. 

In my mind, "putting him back in his down/stay" is a form of correction, no? In the truest sense of the word. :)

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Exactly, Karen.  I didn't have to shock him or give a correction that caused any pain.  I just needed to be patient enough to stop the car (over and over), get out, open his door, tell him "down/stay", and start again.  He eventually knew exactly what I was expecting of him and that there really wasn't going to be any other option.  It still happens every now and then when hears dogs barking.  I think often about one of my daughters who hated her naps, so I would put her in and she would get up.  When she would come out of her room I would pick her up and put her back in bed saying "no Wendy, it's nap time now".  Usually after the second time it would end and she would go to sleep.  I didn't have to spank her....just had to calmly "wait her out".

[Stacy]

Thank you for sharing this! Murphy is so lucky to have a mom who is so in tune with his needs and committed to giving him a good life. I don't know what I would do in that situation. I know it would be really hard. I'm afraid that with me his life would be much more limited to staying home than I would want it to be. 

I do understand what you're saying when you say that he can't hear you when he's in that aroused state. Ava lost me a couple times at the dog park. I would be looking right at her, but see her get turned around and start to run to try to find me. And I was calling her, and she should have been hear me, but she was too afraid. I was chasing behind her, watching her go up to people to see if they were me, and it wasn't until I got right in front of her that she recognized me. We both learned to stay closer together after that. She was very in tune with me. We had the most beautiful relationship. It just always felt like we understood one another. I am hoping to get to that point with Maggie too. She seems to be adjusting to her new life. The trainer at the group class said that we are still in the getting to know you phase of our relationship. There's a German Shepherd in our class that scares me a little. He seems very intense. I am grateful that my biggest complaint is still the she doesn't want to sleep in bed with us. It's such a small thing. 

They really do have their own distinct personalities. Katie is a homebody. My mom says she's like me. I get ready to go out and she goes and gets in her crate. I ask her if she wants to go and she still gets in her crate. I ask Maggie if she wants to go and she dances all around me like it's the best thing in the world.