Genetic testing opinions

[Discussing Labradoodles & Goldendoodles]

First I read post in picking a breeder and understand the different testing. I just also notice not many breeders are doing this especially with doodles. Even heard some say that it is only for pure bred inbreeding and hey don't want to waste there time testing. Also the people that invented the test push it? Obviously many top breeders do the testing and also only breed dogs that win some kind I titles such as any dog sport. Also heard one day here is no scientific facts on the testing? Ok my opinion truthfully is on the fence as a trainer I notice in the dog world many things come down to a debate . I am new to forum and have a goldendoodle on my list for my second fur baby .. My first is a 3.4 yr old Maltese that came from a mill and I do love my little boy and he made me into a trainer that found a passion In training and behavior. So this is why I am researching tryin to get a great start on my next fur baby . TY for any advise or input.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Health testing is NOT just for show dogs - i.e.should only show dogs have good eyes and hips?  Of course not.  You want the healthiest dog you can get.  Does the health testing rule out every problem?  No, but it rules out certain ones that the breed you are looking at might genetically carry. What you want is a dog from a breeder that cares what their puppies are like - health, temperament, looks - in that order.  You want a breeder who wants certain traits from each parent to be passed to the offspring.  You pay for this.  I have a dog from a breeder of good dogs, one from rescue, and one from a backyard breeder.  My backyard bred dog is beautiful and sweet but he has lots and lots of orthopedic problems, anxiety from puppyhood, and now, skin problems.  I could have avoided this if I had gone to a reputable breeder.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The reason why any breeder would say that is to try and justify not being a responsible breeder who is willing to spend the money to do everything they can to produce the healthiest and genetically soundest puppies possible. It's not their time they are worried about wasting, it's their money. It is not true that many breeders are not doing genetic health testing. Many BYBs and puppy mills are not doing it. All responsible, ethical  breeders do genetic testing on dogs before breeding them, period. There needs to be some criteria for breeding one dog over another.

I personally would not ever buy a puppy from untested parents.  Testing is not a guarantee, but it does help improve the chances of getting a healthy dog. Just as importantly, buying a puppy from a breeder who does not health test the breeding dogs is supporting and encouraging irresponsible breeding. Why would anyone who loves dogs want to do that?

[Adina P]

Can you post that link to the breed health stats I love? Pretty please...i am not at home.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Your wish is my command: http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/

[Adina P]

There is plenty of research and proof on the usefulness of testing. Depends on which tests you are referring to.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Vinny, there is one particular breeder out there who is very opinionated but not at all reputable, and who has a great big website with dozens of articles and info that all looks very knowledgable, but is in fact a big pile of crap. It may be that breeder whose website you are looking at. But even if it's not, that's still just one person who is selling dogs and telling you what she does is the right thing to do so that you will buy a dog from her. Genetic testing costs thousands of dollars for each dog, that's why not doing it is "so strong" in her mind.  

There are internet puppy mills out there who tell you all kinds of things and sell you sick dogs from sick parents. Some people are not aware of this before they get a dog. You are now. It's your choice to support an irresponsible breeder or not. I hope you make the right choice.

[Adina P]

Hips, eyes, and elbows are not genetic tests. They are tests of the dogs' actual hips and in general it's useful for predicting offspring. But they don't guarantee anything since we don't know all the genes associated with hip dysplasia. Genetic testing gives you info about DNA and whether a dog Carries the genes for a disorder. Those are usually 100%.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Yes, I kind of lumped that together in trying to simplify.  Sorry.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Vinny, you need to read about genetic disorders in the parent breeds you are considering. This is what anyone should do before buying any dog of any breed.  I posted a link that explains all of that up above. Here it is again: : http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/ Look at each breed you are considering to see what genetic disorders run in that breed.

Here's an example: Hip dysplasia runs in all of the parent breeds with doodles. Read the link: .

http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/disorder/hip-dysplasia

From the above article:

Breeding advice:

Canine hip dysplasia remains a problem in most  large and giant   breeds of dog, despite efforts to control this condition dating back  to the 1960s. Because   it is virtually impossible to determine the exact genotype, it is  difficult to control   defects like hip dysplasia that have a polygenic mode of   inheritance. The best attempts at control are based on a grading  scheme for identification   of the defect and a breed policy of recording and publishing the  results for as many dogs   as possible. Breed organizations and veterinarians in various  countries have   developed control programmes that rely on radiographic evaluation and a  central registry   of dogs. Dogs from large and giant breeds should be evaluated by one  of these established   screening programmes before breeding, and should be bred based on the  guidelines of that   programme. The distraction index (DI) is determined by the PennHip  technique and is   statistically the most predictive method for hip joints in pups.  Essentially, the best way   for breeders to prevent hip dysplasia is to breed only dogs that have  disease-free joints,   based on appropriate radiographic evaluation, and that come from  families with   disease-free joints. Do not breed dogs whose offspring have hip  dysplasia (dogs with hip   dysplasia can produce normal offspring, and normal-appearing dogs can  produce offspring   with hip dysplasia). Two registries that keep statistics on hip  dysplasia are the   Institute for Genetic Disease Control (GDC - www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/gdc/gdc.html)   and the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA - www.offa.org)   Thoughtful selection by breeders, using dogs from these registries,  has reduced the   incidence of hip dysplasia in some breeds and some areas.

Now, do you still want to debate that testing needs to be done before breeding any dog???

Here's the page for Golden Retrievers: http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/breed/golden-retriever

From the page:

Most Important

These disorders are relatively common in this breed, and where possible, efforts are being made to eradicate them. These disorders seriously affect the health of your pet and may require medical or surgical intervention.

• Elbow dysplasia - OCD of the elbow
• Hip dysplasia
• Retinal dysplasia
• Subaortic stenosis

 

The above disease affect hips, elbow, eyes, and heart. All should be tested for before breeding.

 

Other disorders which have an increased incidence in this breed

• Atopy
• Cataracts
• Corneal dystrophy
• Diabetes mellitus
• Entropion
• Eyelash abnormalities
• Histiocytosis
• Hypo-/dysmyelinogenesis ("shaking pup")
• Hypothyroidism
• Idiopathic epilepsy
• Portosystemic shunt
• Progressive retinal atrophy
• von Willebrand's disease
• X-linked muscular dystrophy

 

Any and all of these disease can occur in a Goldendoodle. Most are incurable, and many can be tested for.

 

 

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

Karen -- I was surprised to see that Cancer wasn't listed here as one of the diseases of the GR in that as you know 66% die from some sort of cancer.  One thing that has weighted heavily on my mind lately is:  Is there a Cancer gene that they can test for or do any of the breeders track their lines for incidences of cancer or basically what I'm asking is there any way to improve the chances of not having one of the 66%?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I was surprised by that, too, Sheri. I can only guesss that it is not considered to be genetic even though it is so heavily over-represented in some breeds.

The very best show breeders do track for cancer and everything else in their lines. For a lot of the diseases that are listed, there is no testing available. Atopy, for example, which as you know JD has. (Labrador Retrievers are the number 2 breed afllicted, right after GSDs, and we see it's in GRs too, so that's the explanation for why so many doodles seem to have allergies.) But atopy would usually have shown up by the time a dog was three years old. Since really responsible purebred breeders don't breed a dog before that age, they would see it and eliminate that dog from their breeding program. Of course, most cancers usually show up later.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There is only one "breeder" who is saying it's not scientifically proven. One person out of thousands. Doesn't that tell you something?