Genetics and Facial Furnishings-HELP!

[Annette Wade]

Ok... I'm really hoping someone on here can help me out or can direct me to someone who can. I have been looking for answers for a long time and every time I run a Google inquiry I get this forum. Well, today I decided to join and ask. I own American Cockapoos... not exactly the same kind of doodle this forum is about, but a doodle nonetheless. I adore my little fluffballs. This is what I want to know: Do all poodles possess facial furnishings?

 

I have read multiple times that facial furnishings are a dominant trait. Trying not to be too complex but in short I am wondering how the heck first generation doodle blends could possibly lack facial furnishings and the wiry coat of the poodle if this trait (which is apparently linked) is genuinely a dominant trait??

If poodles all have facial furnishings and "breed true" then wouldn't all F1 doodle blends have facial furnishings and wire coats and be carriers for the smooth face as retrievers (and Cockers) never have this gene?

 

If anyone knows please tell me!! I'm so confused! The only thing I can think of is that poodles do not all have facial furnishings and are therefore possibly carriers of the recessive trait. It is nearly impossible to tell because the vast majority of poodles have their faces shaved, so pictures don't help me and I have been asking poodle breeders whenever I can (email or in person at shows, etc) but unfortunately poodle breeders all seem to think that hybrids are an abomination and they won't talk to me (and often look like they'd like to spit on me)

 

Ok, thanks guys,

Annette

Oh-and here are a few pictures of my cuties, just to be a pet-parent and share as I feel compelled to do ;-)

[Three Doodle Life]

Just had to say how cute Rigby is! Precious!

[Annette Wade]

Hmmm-Karen you're making me wonder... I wonder if the Cockapoo breeders I know and have spoken with are being untruthful when they advertise their pups as all F1s... because they regularly have clear-faced dogs in their first generation dogs. Sadly there are so many unethical breeders out there... so many people willing to lie just to sell a dog. It is such a shame. Makes me sad. Now I'm very very curious to see if there are any F1 Goldendoodles without facial furnishings. I'll be checking back to see if your friend has told you about her standards!

I also wonder about first-generation doodle breeders... where do they get their purebred dogs from? The only thing I can think of is that they simply do not disclose to the breeder their breeding intentions with the dog they are purchasing as breed stock. I've met many breeders who don't require a spay/neuter contract. I really do hope that the majority of F1 doodle breeders are breeding with very quality and to-standard stock!! The doodle is an awesome dog. I'd hate to see it get a start with a crumbly foundation!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Okay, I asked my friend who breeds champion Standard Poodles (champions not just in conformation, but also in obedience and agility, so she really knows her poodles) if there is such a thing as a poodle without facial furnishings, and here is her response:

"Open faced Poodles?  Never.

I have never, ever seen a Poodle who had an open face and I'm talking about show Poodles, pet Poodles, Poodles in rescue and Poodles from Puppy mills.    The only time I've ever even seen a severe coat anomaly (outside of something like SA) is on Poodles with Color Dilution Alopecia.  We call these guys bluebells.  They are very rare, they are born Blue, and they have weird coats like scruffy F1s."  

That's good enough for me, lol. 

 

[Annette Wade]

Can't get a more experienced or trustworthy answer than that!

Well shoot. There goes my only guess-longshot though it was. There are so many F1 Cockapoos born with open faces... litters where I've met the mother and father... also, in general, F1 Cockapoo breeders use Cocker dams and mini poodle sires because cockers are larger and can yield more puppies (and more easily whelp the hybrid as well)... and why would anyone lie about a backcross when they are prized and purchased just as well as an F1? The same with an F2 and forward... I can't imagine anyone lying about that because there would be no gain from lying. An F2 sells as easily as an F1... with Cockapoos anyway, because they are not necessarily more prone to shedding as an F1 or an F2 really. Cockers have fairly light undercoating, unlike the nice and dense undercoat on a retriever. Even flat coated Cockapoos don't usually have heavy coats or seasonal shedding-though it can happen.

Well... I'm so puzzled. I must be missing something. My genetics knowledge must be rusty. That or however the "facial furnishings/wire hair" w-locus gene functions is not yet fully understood. Several doggie genes are still just theory. Perhaps this one isn't being explained correctly or my sources are not accurate. I'm not educated enough to read the really intense scientific studies, sadly, so maybe my sources are confusing the real data? I've already seen several "articles" (like on Wikipedia) about dog coat genetics that were out-right wrong (I'm sure by accident) about certain genes (for some reason the agouti genes are regularly confused and incorrect).

Poop. I'd love to know. I'm still trying to find a way to recognize a clear faced dog from an open-faced dog as a puppy since I (hobby) breed American Cockapoos (I'm currently in the second generation but I'm working toward third. I don't wish to go much farther since I'm concerned about losing hybrid vigor by going too far and poodles share several common genetic problems with cockers, I'm breeding and doing genetic testing for health and temperament primarily so going too far would defeat the purpose)

I just want to try to find out how to selectively breed the open face out of my lines without backcrossing... but I may be forced to concede a backcross somewhere down the line in order to get more reliable teddy-bear faced babies.

I have only produced a few clear-faced dogs, but one of my F1 girls (who is very beautiful but with whom I haven't bred) is open-faced and flat coated. Although she does not shed and does have a long coat. She's not quite two yet and no sign whatsoever of furnishings, and they are so common.

 

Ok. Well, if anyone can think of anything I'd appreciate the info! And thanks everyone for trying to help out! This is such a nice forum and I've learned so much about retriever doodles too! What a lovely dog variety!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

You can do the genetic testing to determine whether any given dog or puppy has the W locus gene. 

[Annette Wade]

Yes, I've never done the Optigen testing for W before but I'm going to now, I'm just so curious (and I do not breed my dogs for profit. I breed for therapy dogs-just as the Goldendoodle makes an amazing lower-allergenic guide dog, the soft and lower shedding of the Cockapoo makes an awesome therapy dog. I'm a hospice nurse-turned stay-at-home mom, anyway we donate the often one-dog per litter-sometimes less-that test well for service/therapy and then just sell the rest for enough money to pay for the proper breeding, tests etc. Therefore I'm happy to continue testing since I'm not worrying about cost/profit ratios.)

Anywho I did find this page. This woman claims to own an F1 goldendoodle that has an open face as well. Very interesting. She does also post photos of the sire and dam, but as with everything else on the internet, one cannot know if it is the whole truth... I hope I'm allowed to post links like this. Please, mods, forgive me and let me know if I'm breaking rules!

 

http://dogbreedguide.whosyadoggy.com/GrowthOfAGroodle.aspx

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It's interesting, I have noticed that those "crimped"ears that stand out away from the head seem to go along with the open faces in both goldendoodles and labradoodles. Who knows, maybe there is another as-yet-undiscovered gene mutation responsbile for this combination. 

Genetics are fascinating but very complicated. 

[F, Calla & Luca]

This may have nothing to do with this but the Australian started breeding in soft coated Irish Wheatens in order to get the ears to stand out. In part, so they said, this was in order to reduce the incidence of ear infections.

[Annette Wade]

Oh-good point! My open-faced F1 Cockapoo also has that ear-crimping!! So this might very well be related to the Poodle and somehow passing along the ability to be open-faced. And amen. Genetics are so complicated! I'm trying to get MarsVeterinary to do full best-match breed panels on my dogs but they currently don't offer tests for doodles. I'm going through the process of attempting to get Cockapoos included.

[Lindsay n Archie]

My pup has the crimped ears but not an open face!

[Lynda Kamrath]

I still have no idea what you are talking about.  What are "furnishings".  My F1b goldendoodle has a smooth face but my ALD has a wiry-haired face.  So do furnishings mean wiry hair on the face?  About talking to poodle breeders, that is quite funny.  I was at a training class and saw some beautiful Australian shepherds and started talking with the owners and said I thought my next dog would be an Aussiedoodle.  The were appaled (sp?) and asked why in the world anyone would want to do that.  But then in Carmel they have this Poodle Days parade and play day and they welcome poodle breeds and blends.  Guess it matters who you talk to.  Goldendoodles are the favorite breed in America (so one study showed) and are becoming more obvious every day.  I would just respond to poodle snobs that "Poodles are just so passe' these days."

[Annette Wade]

Lynda "facial furnishings" are the poofy eyebrows, mustache and beard that are on many of the doodle dogs. They give doodles that classic "teddy bear" face. A dog that does not have the mustache/eyebrows will have shorter hair on their muzzle and head and so their muzzle looks smoother and you can see the refined muzzle the poodle generally lends to the mix. Their faces and heads can look dramatically different from one another due to the inclusion of or lack of furnishings.

Think of a schnauzer. Their haircuts really emphasize their furnishings.

*EDIT* oh and yes-the "facial furnishings" gene is always described as the wire haired/facial furnishings gene and is even represented by the letter "w" so that wiry consistency certainly plays a role, although I have seen many dogs with soft coats that still have the furnishings, despite not being able to phenotypically feel the "wire" texture to the coat. Of course, I suppose that is subjective, isn't it?

 

And I like your response to what you called "poodle snobs" :-) I like that! I was at a dog event with a couple of my therapy dogs and a poodle owner actually spit at me. She is a breeder (and her dogs are barely titled too) and she was so offended it was ridiculous! I reminded her that at one point her precious poodles were a breed in-development too and that doodle crosses were a compliment to the breed because we see them as worthy animals that we wish to include in our creations.

She wasn't amused or educated though. Some people are small-minded and opposed to change... some people also don't know how to save their outrage for real problems (like counterfeit malarial drugs or children without clean water to drink).

And that parade sounds like fun!