Help with nervous/submissive urination AND leash training

[Loril Hawk]

Colter is so very shy.  He runs away from me and tries to hide when I approach him-and I  don't approach him aggressively. I never look him straight in the eye and I try to get down closer to his level. If I get close enough to him to grab his collar, he pees.  I have never been around such a scared and sensitive dog.  I am not sure how to potty train him because of this.  If I even gently scold him he gets scared and pees. I have to pick him up and carry him when he gets like this because he'll run and try to hide.  Also, when he's outside, he won't pee.  He'll be out playing and come into the house and pee.  I took him out by himself (which he didn't like and tried to get back into the house) and tried to get him to go, but he always runs back to the porch.  He won't follow me around the yard at all.  He just runs away from me. 

 I've only had him for a little less than two weeks, though.  Will it take him longer to get used to us? 

And then there's leash training.  He hates it.  He jumps rolls, pulls back. 

I have never had issues like this before--the submissive/scared urination or leash training.  He is so scared/shy/timid that I don't know what to do.  When he's out playing with Cody, my Golden, Cody will accidentally run into Colter and the pup yelps and runs and hides. 

Anyone else have these issues with their puppies?  He's only 4 months old, too.  Am I expecting too much from him?  Do you think he will calm down and not urinate whenever he's approached?  And what are your leash training tips.  HELP??

[Loril Hawk]

I got Colter from a breeder. She kept her dogs in a kennel out in her yard--indoor with outdoor access. She told me he was "shy." She also said he was good with dogs and children. I have found him to be unusually scared and or shy and timid. All of the other pups (already adopted) were very outgoing. Colter was the only puppy left and I'm guessing it was not only because of his "poodle eye", which is what she told me, but also his shyness. I just took both of the dogs outside for a romp and Colter followed Cody initially, then hid under the bushes and finally ended up staying on the porch. I doubt he even went potty. I think he has formed a close bond with Cody, but Cody hasn't played with him yet. Cody is 10 but is very playful. I think he's a bit unsure of Colter's fear and timidity. I don't think Cody knows what to do but if he even brushes by Colter, Colter yelps. This boy is a very nervous puppy and clearly still not too sure about me.

[Adina P]

Disclaimer: I've never rehabbed or trained a scared or shy dog, but I'm sharing what I've gleaned from reading and from trainers I know. So take my advice for what it's worth...use what makes sense to you.

Colter sounds more than shy...he sounds submissive and insecure and a little bit scared. So he will just need a bit more finesse and consistency from your end. Since he is so unsure and untrusting, you will have to show yourself to be the picture of trustworthiness. And for scared, unsure dogs that means more than just loving and nice. Yes, be loving and nice, but don't stop there because that alone doesn't make a dog like him 'confident.' Dogs like Colter don't like surprises and need something solid to expect through the day. A routine or schedule, and tons of consistency so that he learns that you are trustworthy BECAUSE he knows what to expect from you day in and day out.

As to submissive peeing...it's totally unrelated to his ability to be house-trained. Submissive peeing is not under his control...it will go away when he's comfortable and no longer feeling so insecure and trusts you. Housetraining is a different ball game and will just need a bit more patience from you than the average dog requires.

I would put a leash on him while he's supervised around the house. Let him drag it around all day (again not unless he's being watched). Buy a cheapo long leash and cut off the handle so it doesn't catch on things. Let him drag it around until he doesn't even realize it's there. The added benefit is you don't have to grab his collar...you can reel him in with the leash, praising the whole time.

I'm not sure what "gentle scolding" is but scolding is not gentle and if you are gentle then it's not really scolding so I'd just drop that entirely. Until you're pretty darn sure he knows exactly what he's supposed to do, I wouldn't bother with scolding as it is just confusing I think.

He's young, he still has lots of potential and hope for improvement. Hang in there and keep us updated on his progress...and once he feels a bit more comfortable with you start training ASAP.

[Loril Hawk]

Good idea about putting the leash on him while he's in the house. Maybe he will get used to it. I think most of his problem, at this point, is his fear of me.

I'm a pastor, so my life is anything but consistent. But I will try to have a normal schedule for him.

Also, my "gentle scolding" is basically just saying "no, Colter." I think he needs to learn that it is not a good thing when he's doing something he shouldn't do.

I just read an article on the net that said that, with a scared and shy dog, the owner shouldn't reinforce their fear. For instance, when he hides from me, let him hide and come out when he's ready. When he shy's away from me, just ignore it, because he needs to learn to "take care of himself". The article said that if I continue to try to coax him out of hiding or hug him and pet him when he's scared, he will grow up into a needy adult dog, who will run to me whenever he get's scared. My tendency is to want to comfort him but maybe that's not such a good thing?

Right now, it looks like he hasn't been socialized too much. I will take it a day at a time, but it's not easy--at all. And crate training him, well that's another story altogether

[Adina P]

"I'm a pastor, so my life is anything but consistent. But I will try to have a normal schedule for him"
I should clarify. I didn't mean a rigid schedule, but a consistent routine AND more important than anything that YOU are dependable and trustworthy. So that he knows exactly what to expect from YOU. This is especially important once you start obedience training (which will help him tremendously because it puts life in black and white and makes things predictable and thus gives him a feeling of control and normalcy). When you start obedience training you will need to be super consistent. The scared, unsure, dog needs it more than any other dog. A dog with a sturdy temperament will bounce back from bad training and inconsistency...but a scared unsure dog will just become more unsure if he doesn't feel he has control over the consequences to his actions.

Also, my "gentle scolding" is basically just saying "no, Colter." I think he needs to learn that it is not a good thing when he's doing something he shouldn't do.

I agree that dogs need to have an understanding of what unacceptable behavior is and they need a reason to NOT do it. Here's how I see it. The phrase "No, Colter" is totally meaningless to him at this point. To dogs words are just sounds, until they have been taught a connection between the word and an action. Dogs don't understand 'wrong' before you teach them 'right.' Any reprimand or punishment will only work if the dog hates the consequence. A gentle "No, Colter" may as well be "Hi Puppy" or "What a nice day" as far as he's concerned. If it's "gentle" it's not an unpleasant consequence to make him avoid the action that happened the second before he was reprimanded. But at the same time, a non-gentle response will only reinforce his fear of you. So that's why I say both gentle and non-gentle scolding is useless. Gentle scolding doesn't accomplish anything because the dog has no reason to avoid it if it's nice and pleasant. And real scolding will only make him more afraid of you. I say drop that altogether for now. "NO's" usually work best on dogs you have trained already and that you have a relationship with. Then the "NO' means something because it's connected to your disapproval (more meaningful to a trained dog you have a relationship with) or it's connected to an unpleasant consequence. Neither reflects where you are with Colter right now.


I just read an article on the net that said that, with a scared and shy dog, the owner shouldn't reinforce their fear.

I agree. If you know something is safe, don't coddle him. Later on after you've started obedience training you can use training to practice around scary things so he learns that all is safe and comfy when he's following your lead and responding to commands. That will give him a foundation of security.

But I disagree with ignoring him when you need to take him out for potty or must tend to him in some way or another. Yes, give him time and don't force a friendship upon him, but don't give him enough leash-less freedom to go hide in a corner from where he can't be retrieved. Keep him on a leash, tethered to you as you walk around (that will probably work best after he's dragged the leash around a bit). But, I think if he comes to you for comfort initially that's fine! You are HIS leader after all and he's not an island so if his response to fear is to want to be near you that's okay I would say...it certainly would be a step forward. But don't go chasing him down to comfort him because he doesn't find you comforting YET. That will come with time. And again, obedience training will give him comfort because it will give him a black/white world to live in where he can control his enjoyment and pleasure through obedience to you and reliance on you.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

If you didn't tell me that Colter is from a breeder, I would have assumed he was from a puppy mill, because the behaviors you describe are very consistent with extremely undersocialized puppies from mills. This is what you see in dogs who have spent their lives in cages from the moment of birth, without any interaction with people, without ever having experienced any kind treatment from a human being, and without a living situation where the dogs have a living area separate from the bathroom area. Yes, some puppies are more timid than others, but for a four month old puppy to be terrified by the simple approach of his owner is not normal puppy behavior. I know you had also posted previously that he had no interest in playing, too.
If you are absolutely certain that this is not the case, I would discuss these issues with my vet. It's possible there is a medical issue involved here. At least maybe you could rule that out before you decide on the best training methods for Colter.
Having adopted an adult dog who was born in a mill and had many of these same issues even at 14 months, I know it's very, very hard not to feel sorry for them or make any demands on them. But the ways in which these issues should be handled do depend to a certain extent on the dog's previous experience.
I hope you can find a way to help Colter overcome his fears. I feel bad for him and for you. Hugs to you both.

[Adina P]

Yes he does seem like a puppy mill dog. But, don't you think that sometimes, some dogs are just born with issues? Genetic or whatever? Why else would some litters have such a wide variety of temperaments? In Rosco's litter there was a super, friendly, HIGH energy female, a friendly outgoing male, a SHY scaredy-cat female, and Rosco. Four very different dogs in the same litter...so obviously got the same attention and socialization but one was afraid of most people and would hide when visitors came. Similar story in a friend's golden retriever's litter. My friend's GR is a bit psychotic...overreacts, hand shy, leash aggressive.... The other two in the same litter are total sloths...mellow as can be. The sloths are even 'outdoor' dogs at this point...and still appear better socialized. All are being raised by people who do stuff with dogs all the time (4H, training, etc).

I don't know anything about Colter's breeder, so not saying he/she was good or bad...but don't you think sometimes there are some wild cards in a litter? Just asking on a tangent...

[F, Calla & Luca]

Certainly inborn temperament is a big factor with babies.

[Adina P]

I remember while pregnant I read a really long interesting article on this. Maybe it was in Psychology Today (is that still considered fluff?). But it had a lot to say on inborn temperament and fear stuff. This one experimenter could tell from VERY early on which babies would be confident adults and which would not. I need to find it and give details...later.

[Linda and Murphy]

I work with newborn rhesus monkeys. They are BORN with their personality. Some are calm and sweet and stay that way, some are shy and submissive, others bite you the day they are born.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree that there are definitely differences in temperaments in a litter, but I have not seen it to that degree. I've seen shy or timid puppies from decent backgrounds, but not where they don't want any physical contact with humans, especially the ones who are providing the food & other resources. Or even with the other dog in the house, really.
I don't know if dogs are born with "issues"; I have never heard that before, and you know I've done an awful lot of reading on canine temperament. I think temperament is genetic to a great extent, but I don't think issues are. However, I am very far from an expert on this.

[Adina P]

No expert here either. The reason I suspect something inborn is because this pup was, apparently, the only one with issues. If the rest of the litter did not truly have these problems, it can't be in the raising as they all would have been raised the same way.

[F, Calla & Luca]

In humans birth order is also very important but somehow, tongue in cheek here, I don't think that holds for an individual litter. Most importantly, though, to be serious , I always say why is a difficult question to answer. It is more helpful to concentrate on what can be done to fix the problem.