Hunger / diarrhea issues

[Josh Adams]

Our almost 5 month-year-old puppy is always hungry. I realize this may be normal puppy behavior but his constant hunger has increased recently. We feed him Fromm Large Breed Puppy food on a strict schedule three times per day - 7AM, 11AM, and 4PM. We feed him the amount the bag suggests which is 3 1/4 cups per day. Sometimes we increase slightly if he has a very active day. We provide treats during the day when we're training (inside the house and on walks). Nonetheless, he begs for food between meals. I swear if we put a bag of food in front of him it still wouldn't be enough. Also, he eats a lot of grass and dirt in the yard and on walks. Our vet says this is all normal, but it doesn't sit right with us. Any suggestions?

The second issue is diarrhea. I posted about this issue a while back. We tried switching from Life's Abundance to Zingnature. We did so gradually mixed with a bland diet. That didn't go well so we started over and switched to Fromm LBP. His stools we're okay and he loved the food so we stuck with it. He still has diarrhea issues. About half his daily stool is formed, but the rest is soft, sometimes very soft (usually in the afternoon). We tried removing treats one day and it sort of helped but he still got soft stool once per day. We added treats back in because he was enrolled in puppy school and we couldn't go without treats during training. I ordered Proviable DC which arrived today. We'll start it tomorrow. I hope this helps. Would love advice if I am missing anything. I'll add that we had a stool sample done a while back and it came back fine.

Here are the treats we use for training:

- Cloud Star Chewy Tricky Trainers Liver
- Trader Joe's Beef Liver Begging Treats
- Trader Joe's Joes Chicken & Sweet Potato Flavored Dog Treats
- Vet One Neat Treats
- Occasional pieces of hotdog for high reward training
- NF Greek yogurt

[Josh Adams]

The food he tried to eat today was Hill's Science, which their vet recently prescribed (no idea why). We have the same vet. I am going to stay far and clear from HS if they recommend it next week at our pup's appointment. I don't have an issue with vets upselling product, but only if it's a good product. 

I agree with you regarding dog allergies. I really don't think it's his Fromm LBPG kibble that's causing the issue because he has some good days. There is something else going on. If we were to switch his food again if all testing comes back clear, I would want to put him on the Wellness LID you recommended before experimenting with exotic proteins. We tried Lamb Zignature before - it was too rich for his stomach. I think goat, kangaroo, etc. would also be too rich. 

Our appointment is on Monday. I will keep you posted! Thank you, thank you.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The vets promote Hill's Science diet because the company markets to them with all sorts of incentives, trips, gifts, seminars, etc. and a lot of heavy duty sales pitches. (Purina and Mars (Royal Canin) are the other two companies who make Rx foods sold thru vets and market to them heavily). And since there is no nutrition curriculum in veterinary school, (or medical school, BTW), all that most vets know about dog food comes from these Big Dog Food manufacturing sales people.Plus, the vets make a hefty profit on these foods. According to Marion Nestle PhD, some vet practices make more from the sale of Rx foods than from actual patient appointments. (For more info on this, see Chapter 24 in Marions Nestle's book "Feed Your Pet Right") 
Just a bit of info: The Zignature food may not have agreed with him, but it's doubtful that it was too "rich" for him. "Richness" in food refers to fat content, and the Zignature formulas are not particularly high in fat. Quite often, a breeder or other person who works with dogs in some capacity will say a food is "too rich" when what they mean is that the formula is too complex, i.e. it has too many different ingredients. 
I agree that the Wellness Simple Solutions would be your best choice for a food switch.

[Josh Adams]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I will read the book. If only there was a vet that actually researched the product they were pushing. I get that nutrition is not taught in vet/med school (ok, maybe I don't get it), but it doesn't mean they can't do the research on their own and education themselves, right?! :)

Sorry ... what I meant to say by "rich" was exactly that, higher fat. The Zignature had a higher fat content than the LA he was originally on - and still more than the Fromm LBPG that he's on now.

[Josh Adams]

Update: we had our vet appointment this morning. We're still waiting on the fecal results. We walked through all the steps we've taken to reduce his diarrhea and soft stool. The vet first questioned the kibble (Fromm LBPG). She said puppies this young can develop food allergies and there's a chance there's an ingredient he's not agreeing with. After we explained to her he often gets diarrhea from treats, she determined it's probably not his food. In terms of his frequent soft stool, she said soft stool is common in puppies and 90% of the puppies she sees with soft stool grow out of it. She thinks we should wait it out and see if he grows out of it; however, if we want to investigate further now, we can order the GI blood panel. But as Karen pointed out, it's very expensive. 

We're going to see how he does over the next couple weeks and decide if we want to order the blood work. We're leaning towards doing it. 

Meanwhile, he woke up this morning with a reverse sneeze attack (very scary, our first time experiencing it) so we're dealing with that. We suspect it has to do with the extreme heat we're having now in the DC area. I heard that's common? 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Very common and nothing to worry about. 

[Josh Adams]

Phew. Glad to hear it. :)

[Josh Adams]

It's been a while since I gave an update on Sam.

His stool has improved immensely over the past month. We still have some days with soft stool, but at least it's formed and we can pick it up. His diet is strickly Fromm LBP Gold kibble and PureBites FD Chicken for treats/training. The PureBites have been great. FYI, don't order them from Amazon. The bags arrive in crumbs (almost half the bag on average). Chewy is better. Another good tip - we use the leftover crumbs to create mini chicken ice cube treats. He LOVES them. 

I have a couple questions:

- how much fiber should a 6-month puppy with sensitive stomach/digestive issues consume daily? I'm wondering if he's not getting enough. The Fromm LBP Gold kibble is 5% and the PureBites FD Chicken is only 3%. Maybe we need to add more fiber to help harden the stool a bit?

- we're looking for a higher reward treat. He's gotten used to the PureBites and it would be good to add something higher in "currency". We might try another flavor but ideally, it would be a different consistency, something chewy. I know it's hard to find a chewy treat with no molasses, sugar, tapioca, etc. but hopefully there's some type of LID chewy treat out there?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Unfortunately, there are no single ingredient or even LID treats that are soft and chewy. I've been looking for one since 2012, lol. By their very nature, soft treats require the use of certain types of agents that are just not a good idea for dogs with sensitive stomachs.Your only choices really are the freeze dried or dehydrated kind. Try Stewart liver treats, they are widely available in both beef and chicken liver, they come in a plastic canister and they can be broken up; the packaging makes them ship much better than the Pure Bites, They are pretty high value for most dogs.

5% is actually a pretty good fiber content for kibble. You can add a tablespoon or two of pure canned pumpkin or mashed cooked sweet potatoes to his meals if you want to try giving more; it does help firm stool as long as you don;t give too much. 

[Josh Adams]

Thanks, Karen. I will look into the Stewart Treats. We're basically looking for something we can pop into his mouth quickly. We're starting another training class later this summer and, well, you know how many treats are giving out in one session!