I am so frustrated! Maddy update...

[Kelly Gallagher]

So here we are almost 2 weeks into this with Maddy and things are still basically the same. Maddy has tested negative for parasites...so that's good, I know. But, as soon as I stop the chicken and rice and start re-introducing more kibble mixed with brown rice she has diarrhea again...laced with brown rice - sorry I know that's gross. The Dr. just wants me to try strict chicken and rice ONLY until Wednesday and see what happens and then he wants to see herif things aren't better. Here is why I am frustrated...I know once I do the chicken and rice again she'll be fine and then if I start kibble again the diarrhea will start again. Other than the diarrhea, Maddy has NO other symptoms. She is eating, drinking, sleeping and playing normally. Also she is not going to the bathroom any more than usual either..just her normal 2 or 3 bm's a day. I am thinking at this point it's her food...I switched her slowly over to Chicken Soup large breed puppy about 6 weeks ago. We are 1/2 way thru our second 18 lb bag...is it possible that it took this long for her to have a bad reaction to the kibble? There are 4 main proteins - chicken, turkey, duck and salmon. I'm pretty sure she is ok with the chicken and turkey based on other things she has eaten...but I'm wondering about the duck and salmon. I'm so confused...this is our first puppy and I'm feeling at the end of my rope at this point.
Any suggestions?
Thanks for letting me vent.
Kelly

[Kelly Gallagher]

Thanks...I would like to keep her on a puppy food if possible...I'm not sure of the importance of the "large breed puppy" formula. From what I understand the main issue is to not have too high of a protein amount. I would be ok with keeping her on a puppy formula that agrees with her. I've checked out the Fromm website and it definitely looks appealing.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Fromm is a good food, and I have used it myself. It is rated higher nutritionally than the CS, but it still contains several grains. From a digestive standpoint, rice, oatmeal and barley in one food is going to be the same as rice, oatmeal and barley in another food. The issue is with a particular ingredient, not with a brand. If foods with grains are not working for her in terms of nice firm poop, I would try something without grain, like TOTW or the other grain free foods mentioned.

[Kelly Gallagher]

As far as I know Maddy doesn't have a problem with grains...as a matter of fact, tonight's meal of chicken and brown rice only made for a good stool...not super firm but definitely not diarrhea. She was originally on Nutro Ultra chicken and rice and didn't seem to have a problem except that she had 4 or 5 stools a day and she was hungry all the time which is why I switched her. She had been fine on this food...she been eating it since the middle of June. This is our 2nd bag. I'm starting to wonder if the bag of food is perhaps bad? Also the Chicken Soup Puppy has chicken, turkey, duck and salmon plus fruits and veggies...maybe it's just too much. The grains are cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, white rice, and oatmeal. Then there are some misc. fruits and veggies. Maybe this food is just too rich for her. I am going to look tomorrow for a simple chicken or turkey or fish and rice or potato food. I'm going to keep it simple and see if that works.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Kelly, cooked rice is different than the rice in kibble; it's standard diarrhea treatment. And Nutro contains all kinds of nasty things that keep the poop small...that's their claim to fame. I used it for 19 years. Jack did have a major transition when I switched him off of it, much softer, bulkier stools.
I agree with keeping it simple.
Unless Maddy has some kind of intestinal bug, there is definitely something that she's eating that is playing havoc with her digestion. Proteins are almost never the problem in cases of diarrhea or other digestive upsets, and protein allergies absolutely never manifest as digestive issues. Are there any kind of biscuits or treats that you started giving her around the time the diarrhea started?
Good luck with whatever food you decide to go with. I hope you can get Maddy's tummy problems resolved.

[Kelly Gallagher]

No new treats...we keep her diet very simple. It's really puzzling actually. She's basically fine except for the loose stools. I still wonder if it has something to do with her teething...she just lost another tooth tonight...that makes 8 or 9 teeth since this started 12 days ago. She only just turned 5 months old last Monday..so maybe it's wreaking havoc on her system? Who knows at this point.
Thanks for all of your input...I really do appreciate it!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Teething does cause diarrhea in some babies...maybe it does in puppies, too.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

Karen, isn't TOTW okay for large breeds? I know quite a few people feeding it to their standards. Peri is a mini and loves it. I would think that would work well for Kelly.

[Kelly Gallagher]

I have heard that TOTW is ok for large breed puppies because of the protein and calcium content. I guess I'm still trying to figure out how important it is to stay with a large breed puppy formula or even a puppy formula. If the ingredients work and the % are similar I would think I could switch. Honestly..my brain is about to explode. Sometimes I wish I hadn't done a lot of research on dog foods before we brought Maddy home. I know it's better that I am informed..but geez...a person could go crazy!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Your vet is the best one to advise you on when to switch to adult formulas; it mostly has to do with when the bones have reached their full length. Small dogs reach full size skeletally long before the large breeds do. The issue is complicated by the fact that there is no consistency among doodle sizes, especially the standards, so sometimes it's hard to just look at a 9-month-old doodle and know if the dog has reached full height.
Most of what I have read says that you don't really need "large breed" formulas. I know that when I compared the ingredients in the "large breed" vs the regular formulas in crap foods like Nutro, the main difference was that there was more fat in the large breed foods. I doubt that's the case with the premium foods. Orijen makes a regular puppy formula and a large breed puppy formula. I haven't looked at the difference in the ingredients or nutrients percentages on those yet, but it's on my "to-do" list now.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yes, TOTW is fine for large breeds, but I think Kelly has decided to stay with the formulas that include rice & other healthier grains for now. I was really scared to go with a grain-free food myself, for awhile; I was sure the absence of rice would cause loose stools. Happily, now that we're grain-free, Jack's poop has never been better, lol! Sometimes we just need to experiment & find what works best for our particular dog.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

I agree...it took me 4 years to find a product that worked for Taquito. Thankfully, it works for Peri also. Thanks Karen.

[Linda,Yankee & Finn]

Yankee had issues when he was a puppy and they continued on and off for quite a while. I finally switched to Fromm and finally he has normal poops. It could definitely be the kibble. I had him on Orijen which is a great food but apparently can cause the runs for some dogs. Fromm has large breed puppy formula. Switch his kibble.