Jack still with UTI and High PH

[Jennifer and Jack]

I have had an absoultly hysterically ludicrous day... and honestly it was so bazaar  that it is funny.. I am going to blog it because it is really a Planes Trains and Automobile day... (my spirits are good so that is what counts)

 

I need some serious advice that I don't want to get lost in my blog though.

 

We went back to the vet today.. Jack has been on Baytril for two entire weeks. He still has a PH of 7.5 and his urine still has infection in it.

 

No Glucose or anything which is great....

 

I was told by the vet that she does not know what to do. She "approves of his Orijen" she had me bring it in and all his treats and stuff and reviewed them to make sure nothing in that could be causing his PH to be high.

 

I did not think to ask her for a urine culture to see if the antibiotic is the right kind to cover the infection but I will call tomorrow to ask for one.. My concern is how will they get a clean catch? In humans especially children we cath them..

 

Secondly, I was told by the vet to go and do what I did last time which was to put him back on the D Mannose but this time to add Cranberry to it as well since she read that helps him absorb the D Mannose better.

 

I did go to the health food store and I spent almost 100 dollars just on three products.. which I gladly will pay to keep Jack healthy...

 

His kidneys are fine as evidenced by his normal blood work that checks for that. BUN and CR...

 

The vet said  it could just be the way his body breaks down food that keeps his PH so high.. the lower it is the more acidic, the more acidic the less friendly it is for bacteria to grow,,,

 

If you were me, what would you do? Would you be okay with that answer of "that is the way his body breaks down food?" 

 

He is not in any obvious pain other then he still licks his pee pee but no where near as much as he was. He is playing, He is not eating but the vet said the Baytril can make their appetite deminished.

 

She gave me Science Diet, we threw that out and I just got him some canned food from the health food store that he will eat if I change the flavor ever meal.. I am now adding the  acidolphillis,, the cranberry liquid concentrate and the D Mannose powder to his food.

 

I don't know if it is okay to be satisfied with these answers or if I should keep pushing....

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated..

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Jennifer, I'm sorry to hear that Jack is still having problems.

I hope you will not mind my asking if you are still giving him the Pupperoni treats? The reason I ask is because there are a number of ingredients in Pupperoni, mainly preservatives and artificial colorings, which are among the Dog Food Project's Ingredients to Avoid. Some of them are believed to adversely affect the kidneys and the adrenal glands, such as Yellow Dye #6. Other ingredients of concern in Pupperoni include Yellow #5, Red #40, BHA, and propylene glycol. You can check the link for information on all of these. I'm sure this isn't the root cause of his problem, but wanted to mention it just in case it might be a contributing factor.

I hope Jack does well and you can get this resolved. Hugs to you both.

[Jennifer and Jack]

Thanks Karen.. No Jack only had that a few times.. Literally in his whole life.. All his treats when I can get him to eat it are Lambs Lungs or peanut butter.or the organic stuff that comes from the health pet store... . He had pupperoini one time last week and it was half a stick total...

 

He is not really a treat eater.. very rarely..

 

Thank you for the link... I will read it.... What would you do if this was Jack doodle???

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, with his disease, I was very grateful that my vet referred me to a specialist instead of trying to manage it himself. Getting a definite diagnosis relieved more than half the stress and confusion. You can't figure out what to do if you don't know what the options are, and you can't know the options until you know exactly what you are dealing with. I was very resistant to having the testing done, I don't know why...denial, fear, who knows? I could kick myself now for waiting so long.

So if some other issue came up now with JD, I would get him to a specialist and try to get an exact diagnosis and treatment plan if appropriate, or at least an idea of how to manage this condition. And I would have them run any and every test that might be recommended. Urinary issues are an area where I have very little personal knowledge, but it sounds like others here are better informed and have some good suggestions.

I wish I had better advice.

[Jennifer and Jack]

I really appreciate it so much..... That is how I feel I want to know what we are dealing with so I can know what to do, other then band aid it.....

 

Thanks..

[Donna K & Quincy]

Jennifer it sounds as though Jack may have a persistent urinary tract infection and he really should have a culture for sensitiviy done. I work in Pediatrics and we rarely cath a child to get a urine sample, just clean the penis and get a midstream sample. I have heard of people using a ladle to catch the urine, just sterilizie it somehow. Hope you find an answer.

[Jennifer and Jack]

I am going to have the Vet get one tomorrow.... He hates the Baytril and it makes him feel so sick... Last time this happen I stopped the antibiotics on my own after two weeks and just used the D mannose and at his follow up appointment his PH was 6 perfect.. and he was able to wash out the infection himself .. I don't want to play doctor with him and do things on my own though..

[Linda, Webber and Seda]

I think urine pH is high in the presence of infection and dehydration.  When the antibiotics work it should straighten out.  pH also has to be checked right after voiding.  Had the specimen been sitting a while?  I think a culture and sensitivity to nail down which bug and which antibiotic would be a good idea.

[Jennifer and Jack]

No they get a sample fresh when he gets there, they take him for a walk and catch it.. Jack has had this done his whole life and is very good at doing it..

 

Jack's PH is high even when he doesn't have an infection.. His PH has never been within normal limits unless he was on the D Mannose..... .. it is believed that he is getting the infections because his PH is high... which makes sense in his trend patterns....

 

I have his urine checked at least monthly, usually there is not an infection just a high PH... it trends higher and higher and eventually infection shows up...

 Thanks everyone for your thoughts, we are going to get a culture tomorrow.

 

I just love him so much and I want to figure out what his PH is high, I don't want a bandaid for it.. unless that is the best we can do and all other options have been exhuasted.

[F, Calla & Luca]

From what I have just been reading the high PH is as likely to be secondary to the infection as vice versa. This seems like some good information:

http://www.vetinfo.com/dogurinary.html

here's a pertinent excerpt:

I don't worry very much about urine pH in dogs or cats that do not have recurrent problems with bladder infections (cystitis) or with stone formation in the bladder or urinary tract. There are a number of possible crystal types and stone compositions and they respond differently to urine pH. Struvite stones and calcium phosphate stones are less likely to form in acid urine, but calcium oxalate stones are much more likely to form in acid urine, so manipulation of the urine pH can lead to problems that did not previously exist in a patient.

Sometimes, when it is hard to tell if a bladder infection is present, the pH of the urine can help in the diagnostic process, since bladder infections are more common in urine with a pH of 8 or greater. However, this is not a sure sign of problems.

In all honesty, I think that you have the order of events wrong. I think that it is more likely that persistent urinary tract infection is leading to increased pH in the urine. If this is the case, it is important to look for other things that might lead to persistent urinary tract infections.

Read more: Urinary and Bladder Problems in Dogs - VetInfo

[Jennifer and Jack]

Thanks F.. I greatly respect your advice, maybe I do have have it backwards.. I just don't know.. I know often times we go in and his PH is high and he has no sign of infection.........

 

Jack has a lot of struvites in his urine now and has had them before....

 

Since Jack was about eight months, he has had these reoccurring urinary track infections.. and since then I get his urine checked on a very regular basis. Usually they say his urine is okay just that the PH is high... I never worry if it is just high as long as no infection is present.....but it tends to be at least that each time he gets his urine checked and the Ph is rising within a few weeks he has an infection.. It could be that the infection is already there but just not showing up yet... I don't know.... it is not the end of the world just frustrating because I will do anything to fix it, if I just knew what to do..and Lord in Heaven knows I don't want to make his urine too acidic and have him get the other issues that come with that.

 

it means a lot to me that you researched this and gave input. Thank you so much!!!!!

[Jennifer and Jack]

This link was very helpful, this is what they said about struvite stones which is what Jack has.... At least I know manipulating the PH is not a bad option until we can figure something else out...

 

 

Struvite stones used to be referred to as "infection stones" in pets. The great majority of struvite stones occur due to the presence of bacteria in the urine. Finding the reason that the pet's normal resistance to bacterial infection is compromised and fixing that problem, if possible, is the best long term solution to controlling recurrent struvite bladder stones -- and also recurring bladder infections. In pets in which this is not possible, manipulating the pH of the urine is a reasonable second choice.

Read more: Urinary and Bladder Problems in Dogs - VetInfo

[Bonnie and Kona]

Just really sad to hear Jack's levels aren't normal. Yet. Hoping you find the answer. xoxo