Loose Knee Caps- Should I worry?

[Star and Goldie]

Hi Everyone!

I searched the forums for this topic and couldn't find anything.  I apologize in advance if I missed something as I'm still learning my way around the site and the searching functions.

When I brought Goldie home 4 weeks ago I immediately took her in for a physical to comply with my warranty from the breeder. At that physical the vet mentioned that her left knee cap was more loose than normal for puppies. She said it's normal for them to be a little "loosey goosey" at that age but that Goldie's were a little more loose than expected. She marked it as "abnormal" on the puppy report card and suggested I send a copy to the breeder.

After I contacted the breeder she stated it's too early to tell anything but thanked me for letting her know.  The vet said she would keep an eye on it and I informed the breeder I would keep her in the loop.

Today Goldie had her 3rd round of puppy shots. During the physical everything went well except the loose knee cap issue. This time around she said that the right knee cap was more loose than it should be. This shocked me since the past 2 visits she has only put focus on discussing the left knee cap. Either way, the fact that anything was still loose seemed to raise her eyebrows. I asked her when we would know if it's something that she would grow out of or if it's something more permanent.  She told me she felt pretty confident in saying that this is something that she won't grow out of since she has seen it during all visits (today was the 3rd visit in 4 weeks... to me that doesn't sound like enough time to feel 'confident' in saying she won't outgrow it).  She told me that she can't move them entirely out of socket so she isn't overly concerned but that it indicates Goldie will be more prone to early arthritis. She said she doesn't see it being a big enough issue that it would result in any surgeries.

Here are my questions:

-Are loose knee caps common in doodle puppies?

-At what stage do they normally tighten up? Is it too early to be sounding this alarm?

-Even though she hasn't given an official diagnosis, if this is an actual concern would pet insurance be of use or would they consider this a 'pre-existing condition'?

-At what point should I consider a 2nd opinion?

I read over my warranty from the breeder and I can't really tell if they would be of help in this situation other than the possibility of returning Goldie which absolutely IS NOT AN OPTION!!!

Any help is welcomed! Thanks for taking the time to read this :)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm sorry to hear this, Star.

Luxating patellas are very common in poodles, especially the smaller ones, and it is usually genetic: http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/disorder/patellar-luxation

IMO, all miniature and toy poodles should have their knees tested and OFA registered before being bred.

A truly reputable breeder's warranty should offer the option of refunding a portion of your purchase price if a puppy is found to have this type of genetic condition, rather than just the option to return the dog, which nobody would do. But at this point, that's moot. If your warranty only offers a return/ replacementoption, you're not going to get any help from the breeder. I do think that if Goldie does have patellar luxation and your breeder is unwilling to help you in any way, you should make the breeder's name known by PM to anyone who requests the info so that people know this may be an issue with that breeder's puppies.

Insurance is not going to cover this, it will definitely be a pre-existing condition. I would still get insurance anyway, I made the mistake of not getting it after JD had been diagnosed with major allergies, and since then he has been diagnosed with two other diseases which have been extremely expensive to diagnose and treat. I really wish I had gotten the insurance even though it wouldn't have covered his allergies.

I also have to say that I do agree with your vet that it's unlikely Goldie will outgrow this. I hope she does, though.

Information on Patellar Luxation:

http://www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/HealthConditions/SmallAnimalTopics...

http://www.2ndchance.info/patella.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxating_patella

[Star and Goldie]

Thanks Karen. Goldie's parents did receive the OFA testing and I was given a copy of both of their records when I purchased Goldie. I guess that's another thing that has me stumped. They both received the all clear so I'm surprised to see this issue pop up for Goldie already. Wouldn't the two of them being cleared mean Goldie would not be a candidate to have that passed down in her genes?

I searched long and hard for a trustworthy breeder and ended up going through GANA to find the one I chose, Hilltop Pups. Because they are a part of GANA I did trust their health testing.

Goldie has her final round of puppy vaccinations in 3 weeks. I think after that I may reach back out to the breeder and see what options she can give me.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There are lots of different OFA tests, though, and her parents may have had their hips tested, but not the knees.

Even if they were, and their elbows/knees were fine, a puppy can still be a candidate for having an orthopedic condition passed down genetically. We have a DK member whose mini-goldendoodle was diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia in both hips at 13 months of age, even though both parents hips had been tested. In that case, the breeder did the right thing and refunded the purchase price as per the contract.

There can be a couple of reasons for this. One is the size disparity between the parents and the differences in the structure of the joints in a full sized retriever versus a small poodle. The other reason can be that often, the breeders do the health testing on dogs that are younger than two years old, and any testing that has been done is preliminary testing. But those scores can change as a dog matures, which is why the real testing is done on dogs older than 2 years.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

it does look like your breeder's contract provides for refunds in cases of genetic diseases or conditions diagnosed before 26 months old. Elbows were mentioned as being covered, but not knees. I also see that the breeding dogs were OFA tested for elbows. I would try to work with the breeder if Goldie does have luxating patellas. I also think a visit to a veterinary orthopedic specialist is a good idea, so that you can get a very clear picture of what exactly might be wrong.

[Jennifer and Jack]

Jack who is an F1b Toy Golden doodle had loose knee caps as a puppy but it went away within the first three months.. At the time I didn't know any better.  I would try to get insurance but I fear that the knees since they were already marked as a warning will be considered a pre existing condition.

[Star and Goldie]

Hopefully it will go away like Jack's did! The vet did say the left knee cap felt better so maybe there is still hope!! She just turned 3 months old yesterday. I'm hoping that her body is still growing and that within the next couple of months we will see some radical improvements!

[Star and Goldie]

I found this in my warranty "Genetic defects are provided until 26 months of age; with related reimbursement limited to purchase price. Qualifying genetic defects for reimbursement are those related to hip, heart, elbow, eye, PRA and vWD. Reimbursement for  genetic defects will be made only when a second opinion from a qualified veterinarian and proof of surgery expenses are provided"

Do you read that to say this is included? Are elbows and knees considered the same (I hope that's not a stupid question). I also read it as the warranty wouldn't be useful unless she actually had to have surgery.

This is the first breeder warranty I've ever had so I'm not entirely sure how to interpret everything.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

GMTA, lol. I just posted this above!

It;s not a stupid question, I am not sure myself if that includes knees, the way it's worded.

[Star and Goldie]

Thanks Karen.  Once again you are a FANTASTIC voice of reason! I just emailed the puppy report to the breeder to get her take and see where we go from here. I guess I will wait to see her reply but hopefully it's a super helpful one :)

[F, Calla & Luca]

I agree with Karen as far as insurance. But I do think you might want to have Goldie checked by a veterinary orthopedic specialist. I did this over Calla's gait and although the vet was concerned, the orthopedic specialist said all was fine. It did total about $600 when all was said and done but my insurance covered some of it.

[Star and Goldie]

$600... ouch. I'm going to have to start saving for that one. As a single mother I just can't afford that right now. I wonder if there are any that take payment plans. Geez... I wasn't prepared for something like this after just dishing out $2,000 for the puppy one month ago. Come on tax money!!!

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

Star, please get insurance today!  Don't put this off.  Even if it won't cover this, you never know what can happen tomorrow!  This is exactly why we recommend getting insurance before you ever step foot into the Vet's office.