Oliver Hurt Angel Tonight

[Kimberly Baxter Packwood]

Oliver hurt Angel, our 15 year old 12 pound sheltie, again tonight. Hubs said it  was dominance behaviour he tried to mount her after flinging her about the room  which apparently all happened in the bit of a heart beat.  I was doing  laundry so wasn't present. 

I'm at a loss as to what to do when he tries to  dominate her, and it's NOT playing!  I did finally find out from the  previous owners that he's an alpha male to the point that even the husband cowed  to him.  

He's ONLY nine months old and weighs 75-85 pounds already!  Submission techniques are  not working on him he wants to push everyone and everything onto the floor and stand on top of them.

No he's not neutered.

[Kimberly Baxter Packwood]

Because I need a walking partner, and as of this evening the usable lawn space will be fenced in, if you want to call it a fence, only with a six foot fence.  I plan to sit in there with him and throw balls to him for a hour or so each day as he loves to fetch, in addition to walking him.

As for his being a puppy that's untrained, well we were told one thing, and got another... ever have that happen to you?

And as for the breed, I know several doodles here in town and they are all very calm, and incredibly laid back.  So based upon that experience and gettng along really well with those dogs I assumed incorrectly that Oliver would also be calm and laid back.

But hey at least I'm trying... which is more than I can say about the previous owner!   Remember he's only lived with us for ten days, and he's much improved already.  He sits 90% of the time on command now, just not when he's going after one of the cats or after Angel.

[Gwyndolyn Morasko]

Kimberly,

I really hope you aren't feeling too ganged up on.  It took courage for you to come in here and state your concerns about your new puppy.  And I applaud you for that.  I had two gorgeous Ragdoll kitties for nearly 19 years (that I rescued from under the house of a co-worker who died) and never thought I'd ever be able to have a dog due to my travel schedule and inability to run due to some knee issues.  A few years ago, I took a less executive position in my company and quit traveling 3 weeks a month, had knee surgery, and started feeling stronger again to at least be able to do brisk 3 to 4 mile walks with a small dog.  My house and my inability to full out run kept me from getting a big dog, so I purposely worked with the breeder to choose the most sweet, funny, relaxed puppy in the litter, and I've been beyond thrilled with her choice.  But even he gives me a run for my money with his high energy zooming and running, so I can see why a few people are asking you why you chose such a big, demanding sporting dog. There is no way I could have taken on my niece's 120 pound Goldendoodle even after she sent him to live in 9 weeks of obedience training.  He is just too much for me to handle. 

You can also look into day care places that have outdoor yards and trainers on hand.  I've taken my doods to a place a few days and they LOVED it!  It sounds like you know your personal and physical limitations, but you'll need to find a way to find other ways for Oliver to get his runs and play time in.  I have a teen ager in my neighborhood that I've paid $5.00 a few times to take Kona on much longer walks than I was able to fit in on a few days.  He loved it.   Your guy is just going to need some creative thinking on your part on how to get him exercised and playing much more than you're physically able to do for him. The love and training and fetch you can do with no problem, but you might need outside help with the other stuff.

[Kimberly Baxter Packwood]

I'm getting shots in my knees tomorrow, and if history repeats itself like it normally does I should be up for several mile, per day, walks later this week!  

As soon as univ starts up I will be interviewing several candidates to take Oliver on long runs.  That'll be in September and hopefully we will have made some headway with his training by then.  I started working him with laying down on command today, and "heel" when walking and I have to make him stop and sit because he's pulling the leash.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I think this is perfect advice.  Because of the way people have responded to his "pushy" behavior he now thinks that will get him whatever he wants.  He needs you to be a strong leader...you need to make the decisions, not him.  I also have a really pushy boy who would love to run the house.  So definitely neuter and start a much more aggressive exercise regimen, and find yourself a trainer who has dealt with this in the past and can talk to you about results he has achieved (get and call references).  I'm also a fan of the "nothing in life is free" approach with this type of dog.  It has worked wonders for my Murphy who had some real dominance issues.  Here's a link to a prior discussion on this topic http://www.doodlekisses.com/group/trainingmindsets/forum/topics/not....  Good luck and please consider joining the Training Group and sharing your progress.

[Kimberly Baxter Packwood]

Thank you, am reading this article, from the link you posted above, and Oliver is clearly an alpha dog based on their criteria for an alpha dog. 

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

PS- dominance rolls teach a dog nothing. I'm so discouraged by the Ceasar Milan show.
People watch the show and think rolling a dog is training ;(
Not just you but thousands of viewers.
If that were true, I would not have spent the last 4.5 years doing daily training. Honestly, these don't work at all. Only on TV.
it's entertainment
Until you get to a trainer a great idea might be to find Victoria Stillwell's YouTube videos.
I think you will like them much better and it will help a lot. Good luck

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

Without getting into my own thoughts about Cesar Millan - an interesting but complicated discussion in itself - I do think it's only fair to acknowledge that he doesn't put himself out there as a dog trainer.  He says over and over again that he deals with "dog psychology" and claims to "rehabilitate dogs and "train people".  I know people say he advocate alpha roll, but I've watched enough of the shows to get the point and never saw that.  When i think alpha roll I think Monks of New Skete more than Cesar Millan.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

This was not against Ceasar, many things I like. It was what people are taking from the show. Not the big picture, but Bits and pieces ( rolls) they believe will detour them from training or solve critical problems. Problems that could be better served by spay/neuter, training, and a hell of a lot of exercise

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

Agree - people only go for one size fits all.  Too much work if you have to think and analyze and consider the context, etc.  Everyone is looking for a quick fix.

[Jennifer Tramell]

I like Ceasar, but agree that people take what they see as the easy solution and run with it.  I don't think I've ever seen him tell people to place their dogs in a submissive laying position - he does it but it's not part of what he tells them to do. 

Ceasar stresses a lot of exercise and boundaries while being intentional about affection.  I think that these are the parts of the show that should be duplicated - but the are harder and more time consuming than a magic "alpha roll".

[Kimberly Baxter Packwood]

I guess I will have to go find out who this Ceasar is via google. The submission techniques hubs is using on Oliver are from when he had a weimeraner, those techniques were taught in puppy training classes at that time.  This would have been sometime around 1998.

Puppy training classes begin here in September after the university starts up again.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

Does anyone happen to have a link for a youtube clip or an episode where he does this?  I suppose I ought to actually see it before spouting off.  :)