PLEASE HELP!!! IMPORTANT QUESTION/ PROBLEM NEED ADVICE

[Kona]

Hi

I joined this forum yesterday as we are at a crossroads with our Aussie Labradoodle, Kona, 17 mos. Please bear with this long post but I want to give a full picture as I am seeking advice from anyone who has experienced anything similar...

We received Kona last Spring from Oregon.    He arrived after a looooong flight to NY that from start to finish covered a whole day.  I bring that up because I truly feel Kona was somehow traumatized by the flight as he was slow to warm up to people and a very skittish and aloof for a long while.  With lots of love and attention, he started to come into his own. We have three children that are very responsible with Kona and are old enough to know how to treat him.  Kona exhibited some troublesome traits beyond normal puppy behavior early on.  Believe it or not, our little Aussie labradoodle had traits of dominance/aggression.  He would stand up on high objects, growl and bite, way beyond playful biting, hump the younger children and refuse to be removed,  growl and bite when he was removed from situations etc.   He bit a few times to the point of drawing blood ( not a playful puppy nip) even though we tried all manner of bite inhibition, he showed signs of biting in anger (including a bite to my ndaughter's face).   We would immediately correct the behavior and sought the help of trainers, so the kids could learn how to properly deal with him at all times.  We also supervised the children with Kona and did not allow them to play any tug of war or roughousing type games that would feed the behavior.  A mutual friend of ours is friends with Brian Kilcommons (author Good Owners, Great Dogs) and Brian was kind enough to give us a phone consultation.  Brian was very troubled by Kona's behaviors, especially for his young age and strongly felt we should consider returning Kona to the breeder.  Well, at this point, we were already head over heels in love with Kona( despite his behavior) and really were incredulous as we had done extensive research on the breed and finding a good breeder asnd just did not want to accept that analysis.  We also thought that we as a family must somehow be to blame as Kona was so young and thought we just needed to train him better.  We also did not want to rely on a phone consultation for such a colassal decision so we called upon an expert that Brian had recommended to make an in person evaluation.  To make a long story a little shorter,  a trainer came in and observed our 12 week old Kona and did a variety of "tests" with him.  Some direct quotes from her report are as follows:  "Kona exhibited inappropriate levels of aggression for a puppy of his age in a variety of circumstances...Kona responds to normal life events with offensive aggression...Kona is presenting with forward and offensive aggression to a variety of normal life events."  She then went on to list three ares that troubled her most:  1, his forward and aggressive reaction to being removed...2. the fact that Kona growls and has bitten members of the household if approached in a variety of circumstances... and 3.  when assessing his resource guarding potential... he exhibited behaviors that typically precede biting.  She went on to conclude that "while at this stage Kona's behaviors are juvenile and lack the intensity to cause much harm, the fact the he has presented aggressive behavior at such a young age concerns me greatly.  Kona's assertive and aggressive behavior will increase in both severity and frequency as he ages...he should be returned to the breeder as soon as possible." 

After that evaluation, we contacted our breeder to voice our concerns.  Of course, she did not agree with the assessment and felt that he was fine and loving when he left her home so that we must be at fault in not extablishing his place in our pack, etc.  She was, however, willing to take him back but felt strongly that it could not possibly be the dog as this had never happened before, he was evaluated etc.   After a long conversation and some back and forth emails, we decided to really give it another try with Kona, hire a trainer who would work with the whole family and really give it our best shot as we did not want to give up on Kona.  ( on a side note, we were experienced dog owners who had never encountered such problems before)  Even though Kona had such a negative evaluation from the1st trainer, we felt that maybe she was somehow biased by Brian's opinion and rationalized that she couldn't possibly get to know the dog after a 1 day meeting... so we continued

 

We then had another trainer in who was also disturbed by his dominant/aggressive behavior but felt that with "hug therapy" (her words) and a bunch of other methods to get him used to being submissive (he would refuse to lie on his back or side), he was trainable. We didn't really gel with that trainer so we called upon another woman who has a great reputtion in our community.  (Yes at this point we were investing way too much $$ but we really did not want to give up)  This trainer was great.  She definitely was troubled by some of Kona's behaviors and said he was an alpha dog all the way but felt she could help our family work with him.   She aslo felt that he was under handled at the breeders (hotly contested) and over handled by us intially .   We had weekly sessions with her as well as daily homework.  Our whole family worked hard on implementing her training methods to oversome his undesirable behaviors.  After a lot of work, Kona sits on command, stays, waves, dances, rings a bell to go outside etc.  He still chooses to ignore commands but hey, he's a playful puppy...

Over time, we felt we had worked out a lot of his issues and Kona became our companion EVERYWHERE.  It started with a trip to North Carolina beaches last summer and continued to many more places including, parks, lakes, other vacations etc.  He is extremely well socialized and loves meeting new people.  He was still very dominant when meeting other dogs and very demanding of attn but we just felt that's his personality.

OK so now the tough part.  When Kona was about a year old this past winter he was on our bed one morning and my youngest daughter 7 went up to greet and pet him.  He was awake but still lying down and as she bent over to kiss him, he snapped and nipped her in the face. His tooth caught her eye and unfortunately scratched her cornea but he did not puncture any flesh on her face.  After of course dealing with her medical issue, we dealt with Kona.  We rationalized his behavior again, chiding our daughter for bothering him when he was lying down, for not heeding his warning of a snarl etc.  We also implemented a no bed rule and moved him to the floor as we did not want him to feel over confident, possessive etc.

Bite number 2 :  Kona loves to lie down on a doggie bed in the bathroom when family members are in the shower.  My 9 yr old boy was going to take a shower and saw Kona on his bed.  Because of Kona's facial hair, my son did not see that Kona had a bone/treat in his mouth.  My son  -- who by the way is the most gentle one in our whole family, who feels Kona's pain and gets upset when we even groom him -- bent down to give him a pet before he got in the shower and Kona let out a nasty growl and instantly snapped at Luke's hand.  He ripped the flesh off the top of his right finger, in a jagged line from knuckle to tip.  My son was inconsolable from shock and fear but once again, we rationalized and determined it was the bone/treat and decided we would not give him anymore bones as they were way too important to him.  We were shocked, by the way , as since he was tiny, we had always trained him to not guard his food and often removed his food, treat etc. to train him.  By the way, even if he something really good in his bowl, he is never possessive of his food ...

This brings us to last week:

Bite #3  Kona was on the couch on my husband's lap (groggy) and my 9 y.o.son again went in to pet him and he bit his finger, leaving 2 puncture wounds on his hand.

 

We are now more troubled b/c even though he knew he had done something bad, that same night he growled and beard his teeth at the same son when he entered our bedroom... He seems to in some ways be getting worse as he even growled yesterday when my teenage son went to remove a pencil he was chewing...

 

As I read this, I realize I must sound like an irresponsible parent but you must understand that these isolated incidents occurred over the past 1 and 1/2 years!! and that 99% of the time Kona is the most wonderful dog around.  He is smart, social, friendly and loving!  The children he has bit are the same children he adores.   He loves them to death and lies down on them while they are watching tv, greets them happily , crawls in and out of their legs for affection etc.  He is playful, joyful and happy 99% of the time.

 

That is why we are in such a quandry.  How does this marvelous, trained dog suddenly turn?  Is he safe to keep around or will I be kicking myseld if the next bite (God forbid) is worse...?  The kids once again blamed themselves and all three of them cried for the whole day and begged us not to get rid of him...to give him 1 more chance

ANY ADVICE?  It would be greatly appreciated...we would all be heartbroken but I do not want to jeopardized my children either...

[Deirdre]

17 yrs. ago I had just been through a big time divorce moved from NJ back Ca. with 2 daughters. Our wonderful GR joined us, 6 months later Bay passed. I was new to this town, no family within 3 hrs. drive. One day I ventured out to take in the wonders of the town (chose this town for the school system) I went into a little store, out from behind the counter came the most loving black 6 month old Cocker Spaniel. Brandy attached herself to me, it was LOVE. The owner of the shop told me that she was looking for a home for Brandy she was the last pup of the litter, I told her I would take her on a trial basis (one week) to see how she melds with my daughters. Poor Brandy was a shy little girl, my daughters (age 11 & 13) were ever so gentle with her yet all she wanted was me. After the week I decided that I could help her and we'd be one big happy family, so I bought her. In the next week she bit my daughter's for no reason, after that when my girls had friends over Brandy was locked in my room. Bites continued on my girls and I blamed them until................one day Brandy got a Chicken bone out of the trash and I went to get it out of her mouth 14 stitches later, 10 days of quarantine (ca law) I realized that she needed a different home, it broke my heart and my childrens too. I found her a wonderful childless couple she fell in love with them, just as she did with me the first time she saw me. Being a small town everyday on my way to work I used to see Brandy being walked by her new owners with the biggest smile on her face! It saddens me as I haven't seen them in a long time. I just know that I made the right dicision.

[Kyoko]

I am so sorry that you are going through this difficulties....Is Kona still intraining? sorry for my 2 cents, but in my eyes, the training never ends......we have to be always in training. What I mean is that, eventhough the session with trainer is over, we - owner - have to be always reinforcing what they learned and continue working with them......

I hope things work out for you, your family and Kona.....

[Kona]

Hi everyone.
It's Maria. I just want to do a quick update as I am am working. I could not, however, let another minute pass without expressing my gratitude and awe at the wonderful people on this website!! Thanks so much for the outpouring of advice and overwhelming support. YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!!! Believe me, my husband and I study each and every response and post at night. We are awaiting bloodwork results on Kona and have instituted a very strict back to basics (no rights essentially) policy with Kona. We have not made a final decision yet but if he even continues to so much as growl or snarl after this probationary period, we will look into finding him a loving childless home. We are leaning towards that right now. Many of you have verbalized what I know in my gut but refused to admit. I cannot jeopardize the well-being of my children. I think I just needed to hear it from people on the outside (who really love doodles). I will post more as it develops (and when I'm not working lol)
Thanks again, Maria

[Julie Mison]

Hi Maria...
My heart goes out to you and I can only imagine how heavy with confusion it must feel as we have had some similar issues. My mom and I share Chewie who is just over one year old. He is an amazing dog too...99% of the time. We joke that he is a "joint custody" dog because while we wanted a dog for our girls...my husband and I both work full time....so my mom joined the arrangement and Chewie lives with her! She is very involved with us and watches my girls so they are with Chewie every day. My girls are 7 and almost 9.

Anyway..we have seen issues with Chewie within 1 week of having him as a puppy. At that point, it was mostly handling issues...when he was sleepy and we went to pick him up or touch him he would growl and / or snap. He was very young and this seemed very unusual. We have done training after training and have gotten opinion after opinion. We have done everything from Nothing in Life is Free to Alpha type training to strict positive reinforcement and clicker training. Chewie also has some issues with resource guarding when he has what he perceives to be a "high value" item. He will also growl, show his teeth and snap if we don't pay attn to his "cues".

Now, again, 99% of the time, he is loving, fun, cuddly and amazing with all of us and everyone he meets. He has been socialized since we got him...he goes to day camp often and is one of their favorites..has never shown these behaviors to them.

What we have learned is his behavior is usually always predictable. We know his "triggers"..when he is tired, groggy, stressed or doesn't want to do something. We often use treats and other distraction techniques to avoid triggering him. I'm sure MANY people would think this is giving in to him and letting the dog rule us. At times, we STILL "slip" into this mindset. But, we have done A LOT of research and have found the domiance theories to be outdated. Here are some links/ article about this...

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Stat...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/theoreticor...


Anyway, the most recent consult and training we have gotten is from a VET that has a speciality in Animal Behavioral Science. Everything she said made so much sense. The techniques focus on: behavior modification, counter-conditioning, desensitization, environmental modification, proper positive reinforcement techniques and owner education. Appropriate medications will be prescribed as necessary and as adjunctive treatment to the behavior modification plan.We are in Michigan but here is a link to the clinic and it provide information on their philosophy....

http://www.ovrs.com/departments_and_services/behavioral_medicine.php

I'm sure my mom (who posts more regularly) would have tons to add and she feels much more of the daily stress but we, too, worry about the "what ifs". Essentially, we are "managing the problem" as I think this is "him" and he most likely will not be cured. I look at it as respecting him for him and his needs (his need for space and pre-knowledge if we are going to go up and grab him or pet him if he is groggy for instance). Chewie has never just been aggressive out of nowhere. Either way...it is very hard...not what we had in mind but we all love him so much as well...(especially the kids). However, I so understand not wanting to take risks with your kids. It is a VERY personal decision and there is NO right or wrong...ONLY what is best for you and your family. You can only make the best decision with the information you have and weigh it out.

Please keep us updated. My thoughts and best wishes are with you at this time.

Julie

(feel free to look up some of our previous posts on Chewie and you'll see a long history)

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

Maybe these questions have already been asked and I apologize if they have. How was your dog when you got him, 8 weeks, 4 months, 6 months? Do you know if he was raised and socialized as a young pup in a house or in a secluded "puppy room" or kennel?

Have you spoke to the breeder and are they willing to take him back?

Sometimes dogs are like this because they are sick, sometimes they are like this because they come from lines that are inbred, or because they didn't receive proper post natal stimulation and socialization and sometimes it stems from a lack of socialization and training once home.


I have a wonderful trainer here in Indiana who works with dogs like yours. The dogs are in a home setting during training and they guarantee their work if you would like to contact me I can put you in contact with them.