Labradoodle & Goldendoodle Forum
Should Members Be Allowed to Promote their Breeder in our Forum?
[UPDATE: Since I started this thread, I've come to a decision on the matter that you will find below at the bottom of my discussion topic in bold.]
Hey DK Members,
The question that is the title of this discussion is something I'm struggling with right now. Here's the background to this dilemma:
Because I want this site to be free from SPAM as well as unfettered by constant ads or solicitations from members in the guise of discussions or blogs, our Community Guidelines have explicitly forbidden breeders from posting puppy or dog advertisements anywhere except on their own page or in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (where they must answer questions about their program in each posting). We also forbid other forms of free advertising of one's own goods/services.
But what's unique about puppy/dog ads is that these deal with living creatures--not just a dog
painting, Les Poochs brush, or handbag with doodle embroidery. And in a world with numerous puppy mills and BYB's that can easily fool buyers when all they have to go by is a website, I want there to be some standards about such ads on DK. While I don't and can't do background checks on breeders and the phrase "buyer beware" should always apply because people need to do their own research first...I do try to raise expectations and educate. I ask that important questions about each breeder's program be answered in the aforementioned groups for three main reasons:
1) To discourage BYB's and puppy mills from posting ads
2) So breeders see the high standards that others are following
3) So buyers know there are high standards of testing/warranties and hopefully change their own buying criteria to reflect this (education!).
THUS...the reason I have chosen to keep doggy sales confined to certain groups with rules (not to mention ads are not fitting for a discussion forum).
So here is the dilemma that has been brought to my attention. When members post in the forum asking for recommendations on breeders, is it FAIR for members to pipe in with a plug for THEIR breeder and a link to that breeder's site when many of our active breeder members aren't allowed to also say they have some puppies available? It took me a while to see this point, but I am leaning toward 'not fair.'
Then what are we to do? How do we make this fair yet not become totally fast and loose with allowing ads in the forum? I don't want to get any stricter, so here are two options I'm considering and I'd like your input in general as well as which option you think makes more sense or if you see a THIRD option.
(Option A)
Neither Breeders NOR Non-breeder members may post breeder promos or links to breeder sites in the main forum. But members can discuss their breeder privately as they please. And of course members may always point to our article on What to Look for IN a Breeder as well as to the puppy sales groups. (not my favorite as it keeps education out of the main forum and makes things quite restrictive)
(Option B)
If someone has a breeder recommendation then they can write up a recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and LINK to said recommendation in the discussion at hand or if they cannot fill in the form adequately (due to not having been to the breeder's home, etc) then they can invite their breeder to post in the puppy sales group and then said member can post a LINK to the ad in the group in the discussion at hand. This at least utilizes the groups we already have and continues to do the education I intend.
(Option C)
Continue as usual but ALLOW breeder members to post to any recommendation they have in the Owner Recommended Breeder group AND to their ad in the puppy sales group on DK
I prefer either option B or C or a combo of both to be fair PLUS it utilizes current groups on DK and involves education of members.
And now for your thoughts on this breeder ad/member promoting breeders issue...
[NOTE: Here is the conclusion I reached...
"As I've thought about this more and read all your replies and arguments for the various options...it seems that the most fair and impartial is to go with option A. So let me reiterate what this will mean:
1) Neither members nor breeders may post breeder recommendations anywhere but in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and those recommendations, of course, must fit in with that group's rules/regulations.
2) Neither members nor breeders may post puppy/dog birth announcements or sales notices anywhere but in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (there is an Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale group too I believe).
3) So when responding to an inquiry about a breeder or 'what breeder has a small, red male doodle for sale?" type posts, please direct the person to one of those groups listed above and/or to our What To Look for In a Breeder article.
4) IF you have a breeder recommendation you can:
A: talk to that person privately by leaving a comment on their page or by private message.
B: write up a breeder recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group
C: invite your breeder to post an ad/puppy announcement in the sales group
SO...when a member starts a post asking for breeder recommendations or similar topic, please direct them to the above groups and engage them in a conversation about What to Look for in a Breeder (regardless of the article) and educate them rather than merely giving them a recommendation for YOUR breeder. Let's teach them WHY some breeders are worth the money and what would make a breeder NOT worth recommending rather than just link them to XYZ Kennels.
Our Community Guidelines will soon be updated to reflect this change."]
Hey DK Members,
The question that is the title of this discussion is something I'm struggling with right now. Here's the background to this dilemma:
Because I want this site to be free from SPAM as well as unfettered by constant ads or solicitations from members in the guise of discussions or blogs, our Community Guidelines have explicitly forbidden breeders from posting puppy or dog advertisements anywhere except on their own page or in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (where they must answer questions about their program in each posting). We also forbid other forms of free advertising of one's own goods/services.
But what's unique about puppy/dog ads is that these deal with living creatures--not just a dog
painting, Les Poochs brush, or handbag with doodle embroidery. And in a world with numerous puppy mills and BYB's that can easily fool buyers when all they have to go by is a website, I want there to be some standards about such ads on DK. While I don't and can't do background checks on breeders and the phrase "buyer beware" should always apply because people need to do their own research first...I do try to raise expectations and educate. I ask that important questions about each breeder's program be answered in the aforementioned groups for three main reasons:
1) To discourage BYB's and puppy mills from posting ads
2) So breeders see the high standards that others are following
3) So buyers know there are high standards of testing/warranties and hopefully change their own buying criteria to reflect this (education!).
THUS...the reason I have chosen to keep doggy sales confined to certain groups with rules (not to mention ads are not fitting for a discussion forum).
So here is the dilemma that has been brought to my attention. When members post in the forum asking for recommendations on breeders, is it FAIR for members to pipe in with a plug for THEIR breeder and a link to that breeder's site when many of our active breeder members aren't allowed to also say they have some puppies available? It took me a while to see this point, but I am leaning toward 'not fair.'
Then what are we to do? How do we make this fair yet not become totally fast and loose with allowing ads in the forum? I don't want to get any stricter, so here are two options I'm considering and I'd like your input in general as well as which option you think makes more sense or if you see a THIRD option.
(Option A)
Neither Breeders NOR Non-breeder members may post breeder promos or links to breeder sites in the main forum. But members can discuss their breeder privately as they please. And of course members may always point to our article on What to Look for IN a Breeder as well as to the puppy sales groups. (not my favorite as it keeps education out of the main forum and makes things quite restrictive)
(Option B)
If someone has a breeder recommendation then they can write up a recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and LINK to said recommendation in the discussion at hand or if they cannot fill in the form adequately (due to not having been to the breeder's home, etc) then they can invite their breeder to post in the puppy sales group and then said member can post a LINK to the ad in the group in the discussion at hand. This at least utilizes the groups we already have and continues to do the education I intend.
(Option C)
Continue as usual but ALLOW breeder members to post to any recommendation they have in the Owner Recommended Breeder group AND to their ad in the puppy sales group on DK
I prefer either option B or C or a combo of both to be fair PLUS it utilizes current groups on DK and involves education of members.
And now for your thoughts on this breeder ad/member promoting breeders issue...
[NOTE: Here is the conclusion I reached...
"As I've thought about this more and read all your replies and arguments for the various options...it seems that the most fair and impartial is to go with option A. So let me reiterate what this will mean:
1) Neither members nor breeders may post breeder recommendations anywhere but in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and those recommendations, of course, must fit in with that group's rules/regulations.
2) Neither members nor breeders may post puppy/dog birth announcements or sales notices anywhere but in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (there is an Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale group too I believe).
3) So when responding to an inquiry about a breeder or 'what breeder has a small, red male doodle for sale?" type posts, please direct the person to one of those groups listed above and/or to our What To Look for In a Breeder article.
4) IF you have a breeder recommendation you can:
A: talk to that person privately by leaving a comment on their page or by private message.
B: write up a breeder recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group
C: invite your breeder to post an ad/puppy announcement in the sales group
SO...when a member starts a post asking for breeder recommendations or similar topic, please direct them to the above groups and engage them in a conversation about What to Look for in a Breeder (regardless of the article) and educate them rather than merely giving them a recommendation for YOUR breeder. Let's teach them WHY some breeders are worth the money and what would make a breeder NOT worth recommending rather than just link them to XYZ Kennels.
Our Community Guidelines will soon be updated to reflect this change."]
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by shelly on
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I'm a bit confused....I may have even "broken" the rules..... Can you mention a breeder or ask another member where they got their dog from in a discussion on each others' page? Or is mentioning your breeder a total no-no??? Or just can't POST it on a forum?
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Permalink Reply by Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle on
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Just not in the main forum; you can say whatever you want on each other's pages.
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Permalink Reply by Jeannine on
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I'll will vote for option A. My reasons are all explain in this pages.
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Permalink Reply by Adina P on
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You have not broken the rules yet because we are discussing what the rules should be.
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Permalink Reply by Dan, Judi, & Timbow on
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As a good breeder--what do you think we should have (or should we have at all) as an outlet for those who did have a horrible experience or did realize that the breeder was a puppy mill or wasn't everything they said they were? I know that most people should be able to recognize a bad breeder for themselves, but some new dog owners might not. Should we just ignore the bad breeders and just focus on the owner recommended breeders that have their recommendations from clients that have visited their home? I'm asking because I agree with April's comment below that the forum shouldn't be used as a place to "bash" breeders either. I'm just wondering whether or not "bad experiences" should have a place too?
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Permalink Reply by Noble Vestal Labradoodles on
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There are many legal ramifications to posting negative information about anyone.
One must prove what they are writing, just writing it does not make it proof. So anyone can come here and make remarks about a breeder without proof and it can be very harmful to the breeder's reputation and without proof the breeder can actually take legal action against the person(s) and the forum owner.
There was a recent outburst by a person who was denied a puppy by a breeder, the family was heart broken but it was the breeder's right to deny the placement of one of their puppies in that family's home. That owner bashed the heck out of the breeder. It was sad to see this allowed.
Part of me struggles with the desire to get information out about bad breeders and I personally have spoke out against several breeders for their unethical practices or their filthy conditions but there is very thin ice to be treaded on in discussions like this.
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They can always contact me, lol.
I do think bad experiences should have a place, but there are two sides to every story, and there is also a liability issue. Many people have told horror stories in the main forum without giving names, and people can always contact that person privately to learn more.
There are other outlets available for telling about bad experiences with a particular breeder, and they are far more effective. I have learned a lot about a lot of business people including breeders by just googling their names. There are a lot of sites for that purpose.
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Permalink Reply by Pat & "Tucker" on
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Maybe a redefined set of structured questions would help delineate the good from the bad and only those questions could be answered. eg. documented health problems encountered.
How do we help as a community to weed out the bad without jeopardizing legal issues- the point of finding a good breeder.
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many are recommending their breeder the day they get their puppy when most health issues do not occur until the dog is over 2.
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Amen to this.
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A thought would be, the questions could be redefided and that's a good one to include how long have you had the doodle and all of the other questions one should ask. It sounds as though there have been some bad experiences on here and I'm not aware. I'll step out of this one. I was speaking from my own experience when I was looking for a doodle a few years back and had no options in my state that met my needs. I had to learn who to trust,who to talk to and read, read, read, get many references and ask many questions- this just would have been a good place to find some experience if I would have known.. Good luck with this one!
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