Should Members Be Allowed to Promote their Breeder in our Forum?

[Adina P]

[UPDATE: Since I started this thread, I've come to a decision on the matter that you will find below at the bottom of my discussion topic in bold.]

Hey DK Members,

The question that is the title of this discussion is something I'm struggling with right now. Here's the background to this dilemma:

Because I want this site to be free from SPAM as well as unfettered by constant ads or solicitations from members in the guise of discussions or blogs, our Community Guidelines have explicitly forbidden breeders from posting puppy or dog advertisements anywhere except on their own page or in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (where they must answer questions about their program in each posting). We also forbid other forms of free advertising of one's own goods/services.

But what's unique about puppy/dog ads is that these deal with living creatures--not just a dog
painting, Les Poochs brush, or handbag with doodle embroidery. And in a world with numerous puppy mills and BYB's that can easily fool buyers when all they have to go by is a website, I want there to be some standards about such ads on DK. While I don't and can't do background checks on breeders and the phrase "buyer beware" should always apply because people need to do their own research first...I do try to raise expectations and educate. I ask that important questions about each breeder's program be answered in the aforementioned groups for three main reasons:

1) To discourage BYB's and puppy mills from posting ads
2) So breeders see the high standards that others are following
3) So buyers know there are high standards of testing/warranties and hopefully change their own buying criteria to reflect this (education!).

THUS...the reason I have chosen to keep doggy sales confined to certain groups with rules (not to mention ads are not fitting for a discussion forum).

So here is the dilemma that has been brought to my attention. When members post in the forum asking for recommendations on breeders, is it FAIR for members to pipe in with a plug for THEIR breeder and a link to that breeder's site when many of our active breeder members aren't allowed to also say they have some puppies available? It took me a while to see this point, but I am leaning toward 'not fair.'

Then what are we to do? How do we make this fair yet not become totally fast and loose with allowing ads in the forum? I don't want to get any stricter, so here are two options I'm considering and I'd like your input in general as well as which option you think makes more sense or if you see a THIRD option.

(Option A)
Neither Breeders NOR Non-breeder members may post breeder promos or links to breeder sites in the main forum. But members can discuss their breeder privately as they please. And of course members may always point to our article on What to Look for IN a Breeder as well as to the puppy sales groups. (not my favorite as it keeps education out of the main forum and makes things quite restrictive)

(Option B)
If someone has a breeder recommendation then they can write up a recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and LINK to said recommendation in the discussion at hand or if they cannot fill in the form adequately (due to not having been to the breeder's home, etc) then they can invite their breeder to post in the puppy sales group and then said member can post a LINK to the ad in the group in the discussion at hand. This at least utilizes the groups we already have and continues to do the education I intend.

(Option C)
Continue as usual but ALLOW breeder members to post to any recommendation they have in the Owner Recommended Breeder group AND to their ad in the puppy sales group on DK

I prefer either option B or C or a combo of both to be fair PLUS it utilizes current groups on DK and involves education of members.

And now for your thoughts on this breeder ad/member promoting breeders issue...

[NOTE: Here is the conclusion I reached...

"As I've thought about this more and read all your replies and arguments for the various options...it seems that the most fair and impartial is to go with option A. So let me reiterate what this will mean:

1) Neither members nor breeders may post breeder recommendations anywhere but in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and those recommendations, of course, must fit in with that group's rules/regulations.

2) Neither members nor breeders may post puppy/dog birth announcements or sales notices anywhere but in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (there is an Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale group too I believe).

3) So when responding to an inquiry about a breeder or 'what breeder has a small, red male doodle for sale?" type posts, please direct the person to one of those groups listed above and/or to our What To Look for In a Breeder article.

4) IF you have a breeder recommendation you can:
A: talk to that person privately by leaving a comment on their page or by private message.
B: write up a breeder recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group
C: invite your breeder to post an ad/puppy announcement in the sales group

SO...when a member starts a post asking for breeder recommendations or similar topic, please direct them to the above groups and engage them in a conversation about What to Look for in a Breeder (regardless of the article) and educate them rather than merely giving them a recommendation for YOUR breeder. Let's teach them WHY some breeders are worth the money and what would make a breeder NOT worth recommending rather than just link them to XYZ Kennels.

Our Community Guidelines will soon be updated to reflect this change."]

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I personally prefer option A, and wonder why you think "it keeps education out of the main forum"? A recommendation, link to a website, or any other kind of "plug" for particular breeder isn't education. And usually, when someone posts a discussion simply asking for a breeder recommendation, the real issue isn't the quality of the breeding program or what they should be looking for in a breeder anyway. It's about finding a specific type of dog in a certain price range.
I think option A is the simplest one to follow, is fair to everyone, and keeps advertising out of the forums. It's very simple and easy to leave someone a message on their page with a breeder's name, website, or whatever...there's no reason the links have to be posted in discussions.

[Adina P]

Maybe I'm incorrect. I guess I was thinking that if a link is sent TO the breeder's ad here on DK then they'd see the required questions/answers and LEARN about some important criteria that matters in a breeder. Whereas if someone just privately says "Pie in the Sky Kennels sells doods for $500 and I got mine there!" then the discussion about testing, etc won't happen. I just think back on myself and my search for a doodle and early on price was important...but the more I learned. I didn't learn because I was seeking the info but mostly because I'd see some breeders who DID testing and others who did NOT and seeing the ones with higher standards taught me that there WERE higher standards. So I raised MY standards. I wasn't looking for "what to look for in a breeder' articles...but I saw that some were better and more thorough than others and I figured I better go with the "better" among them. Also, IF, the only thing we can do is say "read this article" then the discussion stops there. Or so I imagine.

The main reason I see options B and C as valid is that member breeders are ALREADY allowed to post sales notices, so why not be allowed to put a link to that notice where all the info exists right HERE on DK? Same with breeder recommendations... if Joe Smith recommends GiantDoodles-R-Us in the Owner Recommended Group...why can't he also link to his recommendation? Why only a link to the group as a whole? I'm not sure I have good answers to those why's except to let people link to groups on DK because there are standards for posting in those groups.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

"I guess I was thinking that if a link is sent TO the breeder's ad here on DK then they'd see the required questions/answers and LEARN about some important criteria that matters in a breeder."

True. So we post a link to the Group. This is included in Option A.

"IF, the only thing we can do is say "read this article" then the discussion stops there."

I don't think option A excludes the discussion of what to look for in a breeder. It only excludes advertising for a particular breeder. If only people would try to discuss these issues when asked for a recommendation. But although nothing has prevented them from doing so, it doesn't happen. The usual response is "I got Bozo from Pie in the Sky kennels- here's the link".

"let people link to groups on DK because there are standards for posting in those groups."

Exactly. There are standards.
Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I don't see most people who are looking for a doodle paying any attention to any aspect other than size, color, and cost, in spite of all the info you've posted here on what to look for in a breeder, and the similar advice of some of the long-time members. I don't see how allowing links to any and every breeder's website is going to change that or educate anyone.
But I do think that if members are allowed to do it, than our breeder members should be allowed to do it, too. Fair is fair.

[Adina P]

"Not to any and every breeder's website" -- only to their post here on DK.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I still don't see the connection between posting educational information and posting links to breeder's websites in a discussion. The educational info is here, readily available, and we can certainly add more, but when someone posts "I got my doodle from ABC Kennels, here's the link", in a discussion, how does that educate anyone?
I have seen many breeders websites, and we have lots of members who purchased dogs from these, that state that Goldendoodles have no genetic health problems because they are hybrids. Is this the kind of education we want to be giving? As many others have stated here, including some of our most responsible & experienced breeder members, there are a lot of inexperienced and irresponsible doodle breeders out there; why should they be given free advertising in our forums?
As far as looking at puppy pictures, I don't think we have any shortage of those, and there are lots of breeder groups as well.

[gkce5pjesxm9]

Hi,

I like Option B. The only point I want to make is that ANY recommendation made needs to be from a personal experience. I feel only clients that have visited their breeder should make a recommendation. There are many breeders that simply ship pups to their clients and although you may have gotten a lovely pup, you really don't know how it was raised nor have you met the breeder face to face. What is written or printed on a website can sometimes be very different in reality.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

C does not prevent puppy mills and does not allow for screening of ethical breeders.

I am sure that every breeder has had at least 1 client pick up their puppy or visit at some point. Some hide being the protection against parvo which is a complete and utter joke. Momma dogs go out side then right back in with their puppies without being sanitized, the breeder and their family likely leave the house on a regular basis, go to the vet and pet-stores and come back home without sterilization. This brings the threat of parvo right into the home without a client ever stepping foot in. So any breeder who hides behind this is hiding something! Maybe they just don't want to deal with clients in their home and taking up their time...

If the breeder is new they likely don't have sufficient experience and should be working under the mentorship of another breeder who can serve as a reference.

[Adina P]

None of the options prevent puppy mills or BYB's.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

no but the current method does require that an individual visit and verify the condition of the environment.

I do feel that it is very important to have recommendations from clients who have visited because in this day of online consumerism where many buy from websites and never have the opportunity to travel and visit all of the breeders across the country. It is important to hear from someone who has visited the breeder and can vouch for the quality of the environment. Not every state has quality breeders and not every family has the opportunity to travel.

I personally will only allow people who have been in my home to be a reference for us, they have seen where my puppies sleep and play, they have seen my set up and the parents.

I have had countless clients who have traveled from state to state to visit breeders and tell me the horrifying stories of breeders who look good on the internet who had dogs with great pedigrees and health testing too but the dogs where not well cared for, matted and dirty, spending most of their time outside in the eliminates right along with the puppies. They reported of and even took pictures of rooms with cages stacked with puppies inside.

I can look at their website and see that the dogs are matted and puppies are kept outside because I know what a well groomed dog looks like and what puppies that have been raised indoors and well kept look like. The average online shopper doesn't have a clue.

All of the breeders that were reported to me by visiting clients had health tested, had dogs with pedigrees and were members of associations minus 1 who was instead USD inspected and licensed.

*This is what I wrote in response to another debate similar. Since I wrote it I went back and counted the reports from visiting clients and there were 6 in the summer of 2009, 2 in the fall of 2009 and going back 12 in 2008! 2 of them actually took pictures of the house and property where the dogs and humans lived. I have had an opportunity to visit each of the reported breeder's websites and the report something very different!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree with this, and would also like to mention another aspect of taking recommendations from anyone who gives one.
As Joyce mentioned above, "There are many breeders that simply ship pups to their clients and although you may have gotten a lovely pup, you really don't know how it was raised nor have you met the breeder face to face. What is written or printed on a website can sometimes be very different in reality."
This is very true. But, also, many owners here on Doodle Kisses are first time dog owners who never bought a puppy before. Even if someone visited the breeder's facility, did they know what they were looking at? Did they know what they should be looking for? If they saw the parents, did they know how to interpret their temperaments? What would they have been comparing the facility to, if they have never seen a breeding facility before and have no way to know if what they're seeing is above, below, or at the acceptable standards? Does the person asking for recommendations know whether someone has carefully researched & has experience in evaluating a breeding program? And until a puppy has matured a bit, the owner really doesn't know if it's even all that healthy...some recommendations are coming from people who got their pups two weeks ago.
As has been mentioned before in another dicussion, all recommendations are not equal, and experience counts for a lot in these issues. So how helpful can these recommendations be anyway? Who benefits from allowing links to any and every site?
I just don't think there are enough benefits in allowing the unrestricted posting of links to breeder sites to counterbalance the risk of turning the forum into a free ad site for less than stellar programs.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

I would like to add that I prefer A over C and that if this forum was an open free for all I likely would not participate at all.

[Adrianne Matzkin]

I would like to keep the main forums and discussions free of discussions of breeders. I think that someone looking for a breeder, wants info on or to share info about a breeder it should be in the Owner Recommended Breeders group. All the info should be in 1 group where all discussions/info are together. Isn't that why there are groups?
If someone starts a discussion regarding breeders, they should be directed to go to the ORBG to ask or post whatever they want. Those who are part of the ORBG want to be there and want to share their stories. I think new members looking for a doodle should have a place to look for recommenations by other DK members. Maybe it will help to put BYB and PM and pet store's out of business - with education of what a good breeder does!

I personally to do not want ads of any kind on DK.