Should Members Be Allowed to Promote their Breeder in our Forum?

[Adina P]

[UPDATE: Since I started this thread, I've come to a decision on the matter that you will find below at the bottom of my discussion topic in bold.]

Hey DK Members,

The question that is the title of this discussion is something I'm struggling with right now. Here's the background to this dilemma:

Because I want this site to be free from SPAM as well as unfettered by constant ads or solicitations from members in the guise of discussions or blogs, our Community Guidelines have explicitly forbidden breeders from posting puppy or dog advertisements anywhere except on their own page or in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (where they must answer questions about their program in each posting). We also forbid other forms of free advertising of one's own goods/services.

But what's unique about puppy/dog ads is that these deal with living creatures--not just a dog
painting, Les Poochs brush, or handbag with doodle embroidery. And in a world with numerous puppy mills and BYB's that can easily fool buyers when all they have to go by is a website, I want there to be some standards about such ads on DK. While I don't and can't do background checks on breeders and the phrase "buyer beware" should always apply because people need to do their own research first...I do try to raise expectations and educate. I ask that important questions about each breeder's program be answered in the aforementioned groups for three main reasons:

1) To discourage BYB's and puppy mills from posting ads
2) So breeders see the high standards that others are following
3) So buyers know there are high standards of testing/warranties and hopefully change their own buying criteria to reflect this (education!).

THUS...the reason I have chosen to keep doggy sales confined to certain groups with rules (not to mention ads are not fitting for a discussion forum).

So here is the dilemma that has been brought to my attention. When members post in the forum asking for recommendations on breeders, is it FAIR for members to pipe in with a plug for THEIR breeder and a link to that breeder's site when many of our active breeder members aren't allowed to also say they have some puppies available? It took me a while to see this point, but I am leaning toward 'not fair.'

Then what are we to do? How do we make this fair yet not become totally fast and loose with allowing ads in the forum? I don't want to get any stricter, so here are two options I'm considering and I'd like your input in general as well as which option you think makes more sense or if you see a THIRD option.

(Option A)
Neither Breeders NOR Non-breeder members may post breeder promos or links to breeder sites in the main forum. But members can discuss their breeder privately as they please. And of course members may always point to our article on What to Look for IN a Breeder as well as to the puppy sales groups. (not my favorite as it keeps education out of the main forum and makes things quite restrictive)

(Option B)
If someone has a breeder recommendation then they can write up a recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and LINK to said recommendation in the discussion at hand or if they cannot fill in the form adequately (due to not having been to the breeder's home, etc) then they can invite their breeder to post in the puppy sales group and then said member can post a LINK to the ad in the group in the discussion at hand. This at least utilizes the groups we already have and continues to do the education I intend.

(Option C)
Continue as usual but ALLOW breeder members to post to any recommendation they have in the Owner Recommended Breeder group AND to their ad in the puppy sales group on DK

I prefer either option B or C or a combo of both to be fair PLUS it utilizes current groups on DK and involves education of members.

And now for your thoughts on this breeder ad/member promoting breeders issue...

[NOTE: Here is the conclusion I reached...

"As I've thought about this more and read all your replies and arguments for the various options...it seems that the most fair and impartial is to go with option A. So let me reiterate what this will mean:

1) Neither members nor breeders may post breeder recommendations anywhere but in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and those recommendations, of course, must fit in with that group's rules/regulations.

2) Neither members nor breeders may post puppy/dog birth announcements or sales notices anywhere but in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (there is an Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale group too I believe).

3) So when responding to an inquiry about a breeder or 'what breeder has a small, red male doodle for sale?" type posts, please direct the person to one of those groups listed above and/or to our What To Look for In a Breeder article.

4) IF you have a breeder recommendation you can:
A: talk to that person privately by leaving a comment on their page or by private message.
B: write up a breeder recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group
C: invite your breeder to post an ad/puppy announcement in the sales group

SO...when a member starts a post asking for breeder recommendations or similar topic, please direct them to the above groups and engage them in a conversation about What to Look for in a Breeder (regardless of the article) and educate them rather than merely giving them a recommendation for YOUR breeder. Let's teach them WHY some breeders are worth the money and what would make a breeder NOT worth recommending rather than just link them to XYZ Kennels.

Our Community Guidelines will soon be updated to reflect this change."]

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Amen.

[Pat & "Tucker"]

Option B. It is up to the purchaser to do thier homework just as we all did. If I was looking for a doodle, I think I would be glad to have the help of the DK members rather than run into some puppy mill type place that someone knew was bad.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The problem is, Pat, that there are a lot of DK members who didn't do their research, did buy from BYBs and puppy mills, and they still recommend their breeders. I see it every week, here and elsewhere. Some of them don't know or believe that they bought from a puppy mill; some people are in denial about it. People get very defensive about their choices. It is not criticizing someone's dog to criticize their breeder, but some people take it as an attack on a dog they love. So "the help of DK members" sadly often does include "running into some puppy mill place". I agree that people should do their homework, but I don't want the forum used to promote some very bad breeders, and that's what happens when you allow anyone to plug their breeder publicly.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

Just a note to add. If I do not know the breeder personally I do make a point of researching them, if their website is unclear or they are sketchy I do make a point to contact the breeder to confirm that they meet the standards. Some of them are members of associations or groups that require proof of health testing to be submitted so some of it is easy but when I go to a site that pictures a huge kennel on the page or the warrantee is only good for 3 days or they are a breeder who is known in the community as a mill the post is deleted.

I had one breeder tell me that her clients did not care if the parents were health tested so she stopped testing, Another told me that she never had a problem so there was no need to test. they were deleted. Another was a known filth hole they were deleted. Another commented that their dogs were outdoor dogs and slept in the barn... again deleted... I work very hard to monitor the quality of the breeders.

[Pat & "Tucker"]

I see your point Karen- however, I've run into some real nuts out there when I was looking for a doodle. It took me months to find a breeder that I was comfortable with. I just think it is helpful in some ways (not all) to have the help of others, especially for those who do not know much about doodles or breeders. What a better place to learn about looking for and finding a good breeder. I think searching a site such as DK is a good place to start especially if you know nothing about doodles/ breeders etc. One can connect with others and learn, help with questions etc. THEY must do their homework and I just feel DK is an asset in doing that.- helping others. I understand that there could be people learking on here but for the most part- I've gotten to know know the who to trust. People need to take their time ...Still DK should be able to help..

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree that DK should be a place where people can get information and help in choosing a breeder. Adina has written some amazingly good articles on what to look for in a breeder. But when someone posts "I got my doodle from ABC kennels, here's a link to the website", how does that help educate anyone? More often than not, when you go to ABC Kennels website, you find statements such as "Goldendoodles have no health issues because they are hybrids", along with lovely pictures of children holding puppies.
Someone "who does not know much about doodles or breeders" is not going to be educated by a BYB's website telling them why they should purchase a puppy from her. A person who is looking for a breeder and doesn't know how to choose a breeder would be better helped by directing them to information that would educate them, rather being given an advertisement.

[Adina P]

I think my options A, B, C have confused everyone into thinking there is NO ORB group except in B and C options...

[Dan, Judi, & Timbow]

I think option A is the best. You have to think not only are you worried about puppy mills, but also people that think doodles are just so cute and buy one without realizing the responsibility and expense they create once you bring them home. I'm not saying this because I'm perfect--when we got Timbow I had no idea how obsessed I would become on feeding him the best food available or looking forward to our nightly brush-outs. This is something that developed once he came home to us. Luckily, we can afford his lifestyle and I enjoy spending quality time with him brushing, training and exercising. My point is not everyone is ready for this change of lifestyle and finances. Doodles require a lot of attention and time. Even though this way wouldn't help someone find a breeder immediately, it will make them stop for a minute and do further research which will hopefully result in more responsible dog owners and more support for the greater breeders we have on here.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

how does this force research, it no more forces research as it does prevent it.

As a breeder I screen my clients for ability to care for and support their new companion. Just because someone has cash does not mean they get a puppy. I have on numerous occasions turned families away because they were not ready or did not have the means to provide sufficient care.

How does A support research?

[Dan, Judi, & Timbow]

I agree with you. The problem is that not everyone is a great as you are in doing this. Maybe I read it wrong, but I think that people should not post breeder recommendations on the forum and that all recommendations should be done either privately or (preferably) through the owner recommended breeder group.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

That's how I understand option A, also. No public recommendations. People can be given a referral to the Recommended Owners group & Puppies for Sale group, people can post discussions on what the person should look for & try to educate them, and messages can left on their pages. But no specific referrals and no links to breeder websites.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

I don't mind leaving the ORBgroup the way it is but I would hate to see it open to all not limiting it to those who do not health test annually, who kennel breed or who haven't had a visit to verify the environment.

I see option A as no ORBgroup and no puppy groups. this could potentially lead into no breeder family groups even those hosted by owners since they do really foster and promote that particular breeder.