Should Members Be Allowed to Promote their Breeder in our Forum?

[Adina P]

[UPDATE: Since I started this thread, I've come to a decision on the matter that you will find below at the bottom of my discussion topic in bold.]

Hey DK Members,

The question that is the title of this discussion is something I'm struggling with right now. Here's the background to this dilemma:

Because I want this site to be free from SPAM as well as unfettered by constant ads or solicitations from members in the guise of discussions or blogs, our Community Guidelines have explicitly forbidden breeders from posting puppy or dog advertisements anywhere except on their own page or in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (where they must answer questions about their program in each posting). We also forbid other forms of free advertising of one's own goods/services.

But what's unique about puppy/dog ads is that these deal with living creatures--not just a dog
painting, Les Poochs brush, or handbag with doodle embroidery. And in a world with numerous puppy mills and BYB's that can easily fool buyers when all they have to go by is a website, I want there to be some standards about such ads on DK. While I don't and can't do background checks on breeders and the phrase "buyer beware" should always apply because people need to do their own research first...I do try to raise expectations and educate. I ask that important questions about each breeder's program be answered in the aforementioned groups for three main reasons:

1) To discourage BYB's and puppy mills from posting ads
2) So breeders see the high standards that others are following
3) So buyers know there are high standards of testing/warranties and hopefully change their own buying criteria to reflect this (education!).

THUS...the reason I have chosen to keep doggy sales confined to certain groups with rules (not to mention ads are not fitting for a discussion forum).

So here is the dilemma that has been brought to my attention. When members post in the forum asking for recommendations on breeders, is it FAIR for members to pipe in with a plug for THEIR breeder and a link to that breeder's site when many of our active breeder members aren't allowed to also say they have some puppies available? It took me a while to see this point, but I am leaning toward 'not fair.'

Then what are we to do? How do we make this fair yet not become totally fast and loose with allowing ads in the forum? I don't want to get any stricter, so here are two options I'm considering and I'd like your input in general as well as which option you think makes more sense or if you see a THIRD option.

(Option A)
Neither Breeders NOR Non-breeder members may post breeder promos or links to breeder sites in the main forum. But members can discuss their breeder privately as they please. And of course members may always point to our article on What to Look for IN a Breeder as well as to the puppy sales groups. (not my favorite as it keeps education out of the main forum and makes things quite restrictive)

(Option B)
If someone has a breeder recommendation then they can write up a recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and LINK to said recommendation in the discussion at hand or if they cannot fill in the form adequately (due to not having been to the breeder's home, etc) then they can invite their breeder to post in the puppy sales group and then said member can post a LINK to the ad in the group in the discussion at hand. This at least utilizes the groups we already have and continues to do the education I intend.

(Option C)
Continue as usual but ALLOW breeder members to post to any recommendation they have in the Owner Recommended Breeder group AND to their ad in the puppy sales group on DK

I prefer either option B or C or a combo of both to be fair PLUS it utilizes current groups on DK and involves education of members.

And now for your thoughts on this breeder ad/member promoting breeders issue...

[NOTE: Here is the conclusion I reached...

"As I've thought about this more and read all your replies and arguments for the various options...it seems that the most fair and impartial is to go with option A. So let me reiterate what this will mean:

1) Neither members nor breeders may post breeder recommendations anywhere but in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and those recommendations, of course, must fit in with that group's rules/regulations.

2) Neither members nor breeders may post puppy/dog birth announcements or sales notices anywhere but in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (there is an Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale group too I believe).

3) So when responding to an inquiry about a breeder or 'what breeder has a small, red male doodle for sale?" type posts, please direct the person to one of those groups listed above and/or to our What To Look for In a Breeder article.

4) IF you have a breeder recommendation you can:
A: talk to that person privately by leaving a comment on their page or by private message.
B: write up a breeder recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group
C: invite your breeder to post an ad/puppy announcement in the sales group

SO...when a member starts a post asking for breeder recommendations or similar topic, please direct them to the above groups and engage them in a conversation about What to Look for in a Breeder (regardless of the article) and educate them rather than merely giving them a recommendation for YOUR breeder. Let's teach them WHY some breeders are worth the money and what would make a breeder NOT worth recommending rather than just link them to XYZ Kennels.

Our Community Guidelines will soon be updated to reflect this change."]

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

This is a tough one because what one calls a bad experience may be emotions rather than facts. Not to take away from emotion but I do not think it is appropriate to say something negative to imply someone may not be a good breeder that does not have anything to do with the qualifications that support that. For example someone that complains about a breeder because they do not give them a puppy at a discounted price, this does not in any way reflect whether they are a good breeder. Recently I was horrified to find a comment on my own pages about a breeder someone thought was not 'nice', someone I hold in high regard. It turns out that opinion was because an offer was made that was not accepted. As this detail does not factually support the comment I felt obliged to remove it. You cannot just throw the stone without facts and evidence, otherwise you could be in a heap of legal trouble.

[April Cliber]

So, If no one is allowed to recommend their breeder then is no one allowed to write about a negative experience?

Recently there has been some unfair (IMO) bashing of a couple breeders. Some people are incredibly hard to work with and no matter what, will never be happy. If a breeder refuses to work with someone the person will be mad and nothing stops them from publicly trashing the breeder, even if it's not justified. Also, no breeder is perfect, we all learn from mistakes and improve. If owners aren't allowed to recommend their breeder when someone states that they are looking for one, then I don't think people should be allowed to post what they perceive as a bad experience with a breeder. I know that there are horrible, bad, inexcusable breeders that deserve to be shut down, but it can become a fine line. Not everyone agrees about what makes a breeder bad. And just because someone doesn't like a particular person or how they handled a situation, doesn't make them a bad breeder.

[Dan, Judi, & Timbow]

I agree with this. The main forum should not be the place to bash a breeder. If someone does have a horrible experience should it be put on the owner recommended breeder group? I know it's not "recommending" the breeder, but it could help get the information out there.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree with this as well. Discussions about breeders, both good and bad, should be kept between the parties involved. I am always uncomfortable when someone asks about a breeder publicly or bashes one.
I don't think people shouldn't be allowed to recommend their breeder; they can do so in the group that exists for this, and they can also simply go to the person's page and leave a message. I just did that today, April, about a couple of black boys I know are available from a good breeder, lol.

[April Cliber]

Thanks Karen :o)

That's exactly what I do. If I see someone post that their looking for a pup, and I have one, I either post on their page or send them an email.

The thing is, it's a fine line again. You just told everyone who reads this thread that I have two black boys available. You technically "endorsed' me publicly. Obviously, I have no problem with that. :o) But how it that really different from an owner endorsing their breeder?

It kind of gets down to splitting hairs. I honestly don't see this as a a right or wrong issue, but it is a slippery slope.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

I thought the very same thing!

I am going to burn all of my energy on this thread and really have greater things to attend to. I am going to stop following this thread. Anyone who wishes to comment to me directly can send me a private message or post to my page.

I may come back here in a few days to catch up.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I didn't tell them that! Who me? I just said a "good breeder", I didn't say who!
Seriously, I would never do that in a public forum. I did it here to reassure you that nobody is talking about forbidding people from recommending a breeder. Just not publicly, with links.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

I have also thought for a long time that for a breeder to be able to post puppies in the Puppies For Sale groups that they first should have at least 1 recommendation from a visiting client and just as the breeder is required to answer a list of questions they should link to their recommendation.

[Dan, Judi, & Timbow]

that's a great idea

[celeste ward-tamiggi]

Personally, I don't want any ads on DK. Breeder discussions should be kept with in the ORBG. This is a business for breeders. DK is a reference/educational site for doodle pet owners as an extension of our families not for profit.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Amen to you, too, Celeste.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I think all breeder recommendations (or non-recommendations) should be kept off the main forum. I think these discussions should be housed in the Owner Recommended Breeder Group. If someone has a question about a particular breeder, they should be able to search under that group, find prior posts on that breeder with the name of the DK member who completed the post, and contact that member through their page with specific questions. I do think if someone has a general question about how to evaluate a breeder's practices (and it is not already answered in What To Look For In a Breeder) it should be allowed on the forum.