size of doodle and potty training?

[Willow and J]

We have been thinking of adding a second doodle, possibly a smaller one (Willow is 65 lb.) and one thing I wanted to ask was whether there is a general rule about size of a doodle and ease of potty training.  

When we got Willow, the breeder (small hobby breeder) said that it big breed puppies seemed to know what to do with potty without having to train much (in other words, she hadn't started potty training yet), and Willow, 17lb. at 10 weeks, had almost no accident indeed. Twice she peed in the house, but that's because we didn't read her message right and didn't let her out in time. At nights, she was crated around 11pm, and when I took her out around 5 am, sometimes, she didn't have to pee! (We did take up her water bowl after 8 pm, but still holding for 6+ hours?!?)

I've read posts about other doodles' potty training, and it sounds like Willow was perhaps an exception, and it really doesn't matter what the size of the doodle is in terms of housetraining?

I am curious to hear what your experience and thoughts are about this.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Housebreaking does not have anything at all to do with the size of dog. It does have to do with the breed of dog, though. Generally, the breeds who are ranked higher in Stanley Coren's Intelligence of Dogs are easier and faster to housebreak, just as they learn everything faster and easier than breeds who are ranked lower.

Your breeder may have the idea that smaller dogs are harder to housebreak because most toy breeds are notoriously difficult to housebreak.

But none of this means that any dog "just knows what to do" when it comes to housebreaking. They need to learn, first from their mothers, and then ideally from the breeder, until they come to you.

[Adina P]

Karen is it all or most toy breeds that are hard to housebreak or just certain ones?  Any theories on why that is?  Is it physical/biological or some other thing?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Most of the tiny dogs do have a reputation for being difficult to housebreak. If you look at their intelligence rankings, though, you'll see that most of them are lower on the scale. Obviously, the size of the bladder does dictate how long a dog can "hold" it, so some of the problem may be that they aren't let out often enough.

Some other reasons I've heard are that many people paper train them, and it's much harder to housebreak a dog who's been trained and encouraged to do his business indoors, whether it's on paper or not. It's easy to teach a dog "Outside good, inside bad". The distinction between "paper good, floor bad" is less clear. Big dogs generally don't get started on paper training at all, for obvious reasons.

I've also read that part of the problem is that a toy dog can easily do his business unnoticed, and one of the key aspects to successful housebreaking is to catch the dog in the act so you can correct him immediately. If you can never catch the dog in the act of making a mistake, it's very hard to teach them "outside good, inside bad", since you can't correct after the fact.

Again, this doesn't happen as often with a big dog, because unless you have a very large house, it's pretty hard for big dogs to "hide" the results of their indiscretions.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I agree with this.  I really don't think size comes into play when it comes to teaching the dog where they should go to the bathroom.  I think it's like most any other training exercise where consistency and motivation are keys.  I will say though that I have a mini and a standard, and my mini does have to go out more frequently.  My big guy can hold it for a lot longer than my little Dood.

[Willow and J]

Just as I thought! 

Then how about between labradoodles and goldendoodles? Would there be any difference, since goldens are ranked higher in SCID than labs? 

Any noticeable difference between f1, f1b, since f1b should have more poodle?

I guess it'd come down to individual puppy, but I'm just curious if there's any general tendency at all.

Thank you!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I don't think you'll find any statistics, but I doubt there is any noticeable difference between Goldens and Labs when it comes to ease of housebreaking or anything else. They are both in the top 10 rankings out of 144 breeds, with maybe 2 or 3 points between them, and both are considered to be very tractable breeds. They're both used as Guide Dogs for the Blind, and that says a lot.

I also doubt there is much difference between doodle generations when it comes to housebreaking.

I think you would see differences based more on the environment before the pup comes to you. Obviously, a pet store puppy who has never even been outdoors in his life is going to be harder to housebreak than a dog who is living in a home with his mother. Whether the mother herself is housebroken would be important to me. I've notice that often, when a doodle breeder is looking for a home for a retired breeding dog, there's often a mention that the dog is not housebroken. I think this goes back to having too many dogs, but if I were buying a puppy, I would want the mother to be housebroken. That goes a long way towards getting a pup who already has some understanding of eliminating outdoors and not indoors.

I also would not be alarmed by the posts about potty training problems here on DK. I think if you checked, you'd find that most of the people who are having trouble with this are first-time dog owners (dogs you grew up with don't count), and/or people with puppies from pet stores or not-such-great breeders. I haven't heard of any experienced dog owners here having an unusually difficult time housebreaking their doodle puppy, regardless of the generation or the exact mix of breeds.

[Doris, Knox & Flash]

I really can't imagine that there would be any difference between LD and GD's, regardless of the generation.  Labs and goldens are just too similar.

[Adina P]

My 90lb labradoodle has the bladder of a toy poodle.  So in his case, size was irrelevant.  I think there are some small breeds that are notoriously difficult to potty train, but I don't think it's a size issue as much as a breed issue (like what Karen said about toy breeds).

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

My miniature poodle housebroke in a day and a half, for the following reasons: She was smart as a whip, she was the cleanest dog I've ever seen and she thought she owned the place, ("Soil my house? Surely you jest"), her breeder had started her on crate training before she came to me, and I knew how to housebreak a dog.  

But my mother's little Maltese never did stop urinating in the house.

Not size; breed, along with other factors.

[BG and Gavin]

Gavin was an easy break, however my neurotic self would never for a second leave him unattended and took him out every 20 minutes or so.  He had little opportunity to make a mistake.  As exhausting as this method was, I think it was the key to success.

[Willow and J]

hehehe... every 20 min.! I was attached to Willow 24/7  - I even took her with me when I went to use bathroom - for about 2 months too, and I guess observing her and let her out at the first sign made it easy for both of us.

After hearing all of you, I appreciate Willow even more. I know we'd love our second dog no matter what should we get one, but since we are so much lucked out with Willow, it also scares us that we won't be this lucky twice!

BTW, I am not too much worried about potty training for a puppy. We are seriously thinking of a rescue as our second as long as we're convinced my allergy would be controllable. But, I became curious by reading recent postings relating to potty training, which didn't seem to match what we heard from our breeder. 

Thanks again, everyone!

[BG and Gavin]

When Gavin was a puppy and needed constant supervision, I used to make him come into the bathroom with me while I was showering for work in the morning.  To this day he showers with me every day!  He hears me open the linen closet in the hallway (to get a fresh towel) and immediately heads to the bathroom and lies on the floor.