Sticky situation, need advice & need to vent - VERY LONG, sorry

[Cheryl & Matey & Checkers]

Thanks in advance for reading this and for offering any advice or tips on how I should handle this situation. We have a 2 1/2 year old ALD that we adopted from a wonderful breeder and had a terrific experience. Matey has a great disposition and passed his CGC at 1 1/2. Our family decided to add to our pack and get a puppy. The price of a ALD was a bit high for us, and we also loved the personality of the Goldendoodle (which was also about $1000 less) and decided upon this breed. I did my research (but not nearly to same the degree as with the ALD) and thought that I found a reputable breeder. I filled out the application, we spoke on the phone (she is not local) and I had believed that this was all good so I put a deposit on a puppy that was a standard F1B with and estimated adult size of 60lbs (the perfect playmate for the ALD who’s best friend weighs in at 100lbs). From the beginning I told the breeder that I would not be able to get the puppy until it was almost 12 weeks old because I was taking a few weeks off (even though I work from home) to put all my attention to making sure that the introduction to our home went smoothly and comfortably for the puppy. I had asked for updated photos and the puppies weight on 2 occasions but the breeder did not give me either, only an excuse about the lack of photos. I was beginning to feel uneasy about the breeder but then a friend said that because our previous breeder was so great at communicating and providing information that it would be unfair to compare the breeders. The day before he was to be shipped the breeder called and said that one of his paws was shaved by the vet because he had a little scab and the vet wanted to make sure that it was nothing more. When he arrived he not only had the paw shaved but was growing out his fur from his two front leg being shaved as well. He was tiny too, much much smaller than I had expected for 12 weeks old. When I brought him to the vet 2 days later he was found to have coccidia. He was treated and brought back with another stool sample which then came back for round worms, hook worms and giardia. The vet had also asked me at the first appointment what had happened to the fur on his front legs, she felt that it appeared that he had been given an IV treatment. I called the breeder and was told that the puppies had gotten into bubble gum and it had to be cut out. (I wondered why she hadn’t told me this when she informed me about the shaved paw?) I also updated her on the puppy’s health again and she insinuated that this must have come from our home. I asked the vet about this and was told that because of the short time of him being with us it was not possible that he got any of this here, and my other dog was and always has been very healthy. At a 4 month vet check he weighed in at only 12lbs. The vet said that he would perhaps get to 35lb at the very most. I emailed the breeder with a few photos and asked her about the other puppies in the litter. She replied that a puppy she kept from the litter was on the small side also. I emailed back asking how much she weighed and received no response. In the meantime our puppy has had great difficulty holding his urine and is always thirsty. I spoke to the vet about it and were monitoring it. When he went in to get neutered at 5 ½ months I asked for blood and urine tests because I didn’t feel that he should still be having accidents in his crate at night and sometimes during the day. At night he is in for 6 hours and often wakes me to let him out or let me know that he has already wet the crate. During the day he was only in for less than 3 hours. Well the urine test came back positive for a UTI and the vet said that he had probably had it for a while. He went on antibiotics for 2 weeks and they wanted to retest in 2 weeks after he finished the meds. Well he is still wetting the crate occasionally and will be retested early next week. I think that something is just not right. The upside of all of this is that we love this little guy and our ALD loves him as well. He is part of our family. The breeder recently sent out an email to the families from the litter (I could not see the other names though) asking for updates and photos. I do not want to provide them for I think that perhaps this breeder may also be a broker. My puppy seems to have many issues that would be similar to a mill puppy. I would love to talk to other people who have adopted puppies from the same litter to get information on their health etc but am hesitant to post on the doodle sites. I have seen her in the breeder area of another site. I just want more information so I can make sure that my puppy is as healthy as can be. We thought that we would be getting a puppy that would develop into healthy 60lb adult. We paid $1600 for him and have spent many more hundreds so far. If there was a hereditary problem with the litter I just want to know so we can get him the treatment he needs and deserves. We love the little guy and want him to be a healthy mini sized (he is only 21 lbs at 6+ months) adult. Thanks so much for letting me vent and any advice that you might have.

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

My best friend is a very reputable sheltie breeder and I realize that things do happen as far as worms, giardia, etc. However, a "well liked" breeder doesn't excuse the fact that she has not offered restitution of somesort to the buyer coupled with the fact that she was evasive and was not truthful to her on more than one occasion. It is how the breeder is handling the issues and her honesty and integrity that are being questioned. I personally know that a true reputable breeder (from knowing quite a few) would have done everything they could for the new owner out of the love they should have for the breed and their puppy. The relationship doesn't end the second they ship the puppy off. And really charging $1600 and not being completely upfront and truthful the entire time is a disgrace. I would really question anyone that claims this would be a "well liked" breeder. Communication is key.

[Sue]

I thought that Bailey might be related to Matey, as I recall talking to you at the Wisconsin Romp. And took this pic of your Bailey.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I also have to say, I have lived with and owned dogs my entire life, and I have never heard of any of these things...giardia, coccidia, clostridium, etc., until I started participating in the doodle forums over the past 2 years. Seriously. Never heard of them, never knew anyone whose dog had them. And I have studied, read, and talked to "dog" people for more than 30 years. We had 4 different dogs growing up, I've had three of my own and have fostered several more, and none of the dogs ever had these things, except for one doodle foster last year, and he was picked up in a rural area as a stray. One of my dogs even came from a friend's dog who had a litter, a completely inexperienced person as far from a professional breeder as you could get, and she had none of this. People who bought dogs from pet stores, maybe, but not dogs from good breeders or even families who let their dogs have litters. And I'm pretty knowledgable about dogs in general. So I can't help but be skeptical when I keep hearing about these puppies coming to their new homes with all these things, and the breeder says that it's unavoidable, they got it at the new home, etc. It just seems to me that a responsible breeder who knows what he or she is doing ought to be able to deliver a healthy, parasite-free puppy to a client, especially at these prices.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

I agree Karen. I have had 5 dogs (including my present dogs). My parents had 1 dog. DH's parents 3 dogs. I too have never experienced ( or heard) any of these things.

My old senior dog had some issue a few months back with bloody diahrea that I thought signalled the end for the old codger; but the vet thought was stress related ( we went away without him) or giardia...

April I can tell you are a good breeder by your posts.

What bothers me the most about her story is I feel that the pup was sick and possibly IV'd and the breeder wasnt up front about it, perhaps even evasive/deceptive.

My own breeder flat out told me that she could only give a guess on size, coat type, and that I cant take any of that to heart 100%. If the puppies were ill in any way I know she would have been upfront about it. (one puppy had to be delayed a couple of weeks because of a hernia despite the complaints of the anxious new owners)....I just think reading the story something sits wrong to me.

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

I will say that my best friend is a very reputable sheltie breeder and she has run across the parasite issues before. I really think the key in this is the way the breeder has handled it and her evasiveness. She should have been there to support her and done what she could have.

[Mustard Seed Ranch]

As a another breeder I will add my voice to Aprils on the parasite part. I do NOT know that particular breeder at all and I dont know anything about the situation, but as far as parasites go I agree with April. I had always heard that if you breed long enough you will get giardia, and I have never been without at least two dogs my whole life and had never heard of it. We went several years without any reported Poop problems until last year when we had a few pups with parasites. Yes we do deworm at 2,4,6,8 weeks, all my adult dogs are on year round Heartguard plus for added deworming, my Pups VERY RARELY go outside at all unless its Dry, sunny, warm, etc and then in a small guarded location. We have had to change our deworming protocols and make changes and so far it has worked for us. Its a constant learning curve though being a responsible breeder.
SO-point being responsible breeders do all they can to provide you with parasite free pups-as April said and does, and I do, but sometimes some do get passed us...and they are easy and relatively inexpensive to treat...Usually. Again, thats just my added voice about parasites-

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

I would take what Wendi says as "bible" in the doodle breeding world. She is FANTASTIC!! :-)

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

My breeder actually sent me home with coccidia treatment for Peri because she noticed some runny stools with Peri's brother (that was staying with her as a potential stud) and the fact that is is related to stress, transition, etc... Turns out, she didn't have it, but I am very thankful my breeder was thoughtful about this and honest in the front end. That being said, having all 4 types of parasites would make me concerned. But I would be even more concerned about the unanswered questions about the paw/IV issue, size, etc...
I know I am reiterating what other people have said, but I wanted to mention how my breeder handled a possible problem on the front end.

[Kelli, Fenway, & Dustin Pedroia]

Dustin also came to us with coccidia treatment. One of the other puppies in his litter was suspected of having it at his last vet visit before being sent to his forever home and so the vet had our breeder go ahead and treat all of them. We just had to give him a little pill once a day. When I took him to my vet on the Monday after we got him they found no evidence of any parasites so I don't know if it was already cleared up or if he never had it, but like Allyson mentioned about her breeder, my breeder too let me know and provided the meds to take care of it. I appreciated that and didn't worry too much about it. I hate that this happened to you and also find it fishy that the pup so many parasites. I'm glad you've gotten most of it taken care of though.

[Holly~Fourpawsdoodles]

I have been in touch with the family that adopted this puppy - I have also been in touch with the littermates families as well and their puppies are all smaller in size than I expected. The parents are Sweet Pea and Boomer and this was their first litter together - I estimated the weights I thought the puppies would mature to be and I never expected them to be smaller. The families that have adopted these puppies have all been thrilled - I thought I had sent you their emails where they rave about their puppies - if I have not please do contact me.

The puppy did have a scab on his paw and my vet picked it off and shaved his paw- I notified shaved area on the leg the gum was shaved off 2 weeks earlier and I did not even think to mention it. If you would like me to forward my vet's contact info so that you can verify that he did a skin scrap and NEVER did an IV I have not problem at all with doing so.

I am so very sorry that I made a mistake in the size estimate - I really do my very best in trying to place all of my puppies.

As far as the parasites I kept this little one for an extended period for Cheryl and her family, his littermates went home 4 weeks early and I really do not know how he went home with these issues, his fecal was clear when he had his health certificate done before he flew. It was my understanding that on his 1st vet visit his fecal only showed coccidia which unfortunately can crop up due to stress with any puppy. The next fecal was done at a later date and it showed up with the worms - since his 1st two fecals did not contain worms I was unlcear as to where he picked them up. I have since offered to cover all medication expenses but have not received a reply.

I have also sent between 5 - 15 emails and have never received a reply the only way I knew that at least one got thru was the fact that my vet was contacted. I also sent the contact information for each puppy in the litter - after asking each owner for permission to share this information - I never heard from Cheryl as to how the conversations went.

At this point I have done EVERYTHING Cheryl has asked of me.

Holly
http://www.fourpawsdoodles.com

[F, Calla & Luca]

It's always good to hear both side of the story. I hope you and Cheryl can resolve this.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Some facts about coccidia that may help determine where it came from in this case:

Coccidia are small protozoans (one-celled organisms) that live in the intestinal tracts of dogs and cats. They cause disease most commonly in puppies and kittens less than six months of age, in adult animals whose immune system is suppressed, or in animals who are stressed in other ways (e.g.; change in ownership, other disease present).

In dogs and cats, most coccidia are of the genus called Isospora. Isospora canis and I. ohioensis are the species most often encountered in dogs. Regardless of which species is present, we generally refer to the disease as coccidiosis. As a puppy ages, he tends to develop a natural immunity to the effects of coccidia. As an adult, he may carry coccidia in his intestines, and shed the cyst in the feces, but experience no ill effects.

How are coccidia transmitted?

A puppy is not born with the coccidia organisms in his intestine. However, once born, the puppy is frequently exposed to his mother's feces, and if the mother is shedding the infective cysts in her feces, then the young animals will likely ingest them and coccidia will develop within the young animal's intestines. Since young puppies, usually those less than six months of age, have no immunity to coccidia, the organisms reproduce in great numbers and parasitize the young animal's intestines. Oftentimes, this has severe effects.

From exposure to the coccidia in feces to the onset of the illness is about 13 days. Most puppies who are ill from coccidia are, therefore, two weeks of age and older. Although most infections are the result of spread from the mother, this is not always the case. Any infected puppy or kitten is contagious to other puppies or kittens. In breeding facilities, shelters, animal hospitals, etc., it is wise to isolate those infected from those that are not.

What are the symptoms of coccidiosis?

The primary sign of an animal suffering with coccidiosis is diarrhea. The diarrhea may be mild to severe depending on the level of infection. Blood and mucous may be present, especially in advanced cases. Severely affected animals may also vomit, lose their appetite, become dehydrated, and in some instances, die from the disease.

Most infected puppies encountered by the authors are in the four to twelve week age group. The possibility of coccidiosis should always be considered when a loose stool or diarrhea is encountered in this age group. A microscopic fecal exam by a veterinarian will detect the cysts confirming a diagnosis.

It should be mentioned that stress plays a role in the development of coccidiosis. It is not uncommon for a seemingly healthy puppy to arrive at his new home and develop diarrhea several days later leading to a diagnosis of coccidia. If the puppy has been at the new home for less than thirteen days, then he had coccidia before he arrived. Remember, the incubation period (from exposure to illness) is about thirteen days. If the puppy has been with his new owner several weeks, then the exposure to coccidia most likely occurred after the animal arrived at the new home.