Throw Chain AKA Rattle Chain Training?

[Yvonne, Riley, Murphy and Luca]

Has anyone used the training technique with a throw chain (AKA a Rattle Chain)? I was just wondering how it worked for you?

If anyone is interested of what or how it works:
We went to the trainer yesterday with Riley for "step 2" after the tethering of last week. Which I am so glad it is over, it is hard to be tied to a puppy for 10 days! The trainer has us using a small alloy link chain (6 links long) to rattle when Riley is doing something we do not like.

He started by conditioning Riley to not like the noise. He did this by tossing it at his rump twice. As he did this, as soon as it hit Riley's rump I was to crouch down and call RIley like I had no idea what happened either but I was going to protect him from it. The first time Riely yelped, not because it hurt him, but because it scared him. He came flying at me when I called him.We did that twice and then moved on to setting Riley up for things he should not do. Such as stealing a glove off the ground, and opening the door and letting him move towards it to run outside. As soon as he made a move towards doing it we rattle the chain and Riley stops dead in his tracks. The whole process took less than 45 minutes.

We were told to stop and get more of the chain and put them in strategic places around the house so it is always in reach when we need it. It is important to use the same chain and same amount of links so it makes the EXACT noise as the conditioned noise. He also told us that very rarely will you ever have to throw or toss the chain at the puppy, the noise of rattling it will stop him dead in his tracks.

Well, I was a little skeptical of him stopping in his tracks when he is in hot pursuit of the our two cats. Or trying to bite at the pant legs of the kids,but IT DID!! I just rattled that chain on the counter, not even picking it up just moving it around on the counter and saying "unh unh".

So I was wondering if anyone else used this technique or something similar and how well it works or worked for them?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This is a fairly "old-time" training method which I believe is not used much any more, as it falls into the category of "negative" reinforcement, and the focus these days seems to be on more positive methods of training. We used this method in 1990 with a very dominant poodle. One difference was that the chain was encased in fabric. It did not help at all with the dominant behaviors. The positive training methods of rewarding good behaviors and pretty much ignoring the bad ones helped more with our particular dog.
I don't mean to be critical, and I am far from an expert at dog training, but I will tell you that IMO, being hit on the rump by that chain being thrown at you does sting. I know because I had my husband throw it at me, and I am much bigger than any puppy. Again, I don't mean to be critical; I know there are a lot of different training methods and theories out there. It did not help for us.

[Yvonne, Riley, Murphy and Luca]

I don't see how it is "negative"? He runs to me, sits and gets treats for not doing the behavior he was doing. The chain is alloy and only weighs 2.5 oz. There is not a chance it would hurt even if I did have to toss it at him, plus the chances of me even coming close to tossing it at him before he moves out of his way is probably slim to none. Plus, I throw like a girl! I would NEVER do anything to hurt my puppy. I found the tethering and popping the leash more extreme than this is.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yvonne, as I said twice above, I was not being critical of you, and I am sure you would never do anything to hurt your puppy. I was only answering your question to anyone who had used this method by telling you my experiences with the throw chain. Ours may have been heavier, I didn't weigh it, but it did hurt.
The term "negative reinforcement" applies to any type of unpleasant consequences or "corrections" in response to a behavior. Believe it or not, there are many trainers who do not even think you should say "no" to a dog, which I think is a little bit ridiculous. But it is a widely held theory, even with children...it is felt that ANY kind of attention paid to a bad behavior, even "NO!", is still attention that reinforces the undesirable behavior. That's why I say, there are so many different schools of thought on this, it's hard to know what to do; no one way is the absolute "right" way.

[Adina P]

Yvonne, in training and behavior talk the word negative doesn't necessarily mean "bad."
Usually, the word negative refers to something that's more equivalent to the negative sign ( as opposed to the plus or addition sign).

When it comes to punishment and reward there are two sides to each:

Negative punishment
Positive punishment
Negative reinforcement
Positive reinforcement

The negative or positive refers to what you do. Negative means taking something away. Positive means actively doing something or applying something or giving something (i.e. treats, water bottle squirt, praise, petting, choke chain correction, etc).

Punishment and reinforcement refer to what you hope to accomplish. Punishment makes a dog stop doing something. Reinforcement increases the chances that a dog will repeat a behavior.

So for example, negative punishment means removing something the dog likes in order to get it to stop the behavior. In real life this would look like this: puppy is jumping on you and jumping on you for attention... you remove ( negative) your presence and attention completely by stepping over the baby gate and turning your back to the puppy resulting in the puppy losing what it wanted and hopefully learning that when it jumps on you it loses you. positive punishment in such a scenario would be something like rattling the chains or squirting the dog with the water bottle when it jumped because you are applying/giving something the dog does not like than removing something the dog does like to result in terminating a behavior.

It works the same way with reinforcement as far as the positive and negative sides of it.

[Yvonne, Riley, Murphy and Luca]

I went to a very successful trainer here in Cleveland. He is amazing. He has been training dogs for 30 years. I have a friend that used him and he comes highly recomended in the area. I researched a lot of trainers to find one that handles everything from a 9 week old puppy and up. He trains for dog shows, and has agility training as well.

I never heard of it either and that is why I was asking if anyone had used it and if it worked for them.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree completely. Hitting is still hitting, even if it doesn't look like the whack came from you. The rattling sound can also be accomplished with the old pennies in the can method. I am not even sure if frightening a puppy is such a great idea; there are so many divergent opinions on this.
In my case, it was almost 20 years ago, and we were dealing with an extremely dominant alpha puppy for whom many of the other methods didn't work, either. I know we were among only a handful of people in the group for whom the throw chain was recommended at all, it was not used for more moderate tempered dogs. We found that distracting our poodle with high-value food treats worked much better, but she was highly food motivated. I know each person has to find their own solutions for their own particular dog and situation.

[Yvonne, Riley, Murphy and Luca]

That is exactaly what I am doing rattling the chain and saying "no" or "Unh, Unh". He stops and runs to me, which if I was hurting him or afraid of the noise he would go the other way. When he comes he gets treats. Most of the time it is working with just the words and I don't even have to rattle the chain. That is why the trainer calls it a "rattle chain". It would make a noise similar to BB's or pennies in a can.

[Adina P]

I used the throw chain in training, HOWEVER I utilized a different method for a different purpose than you are using it. Not saying yours is wrong, but it's a different reason for using it than I did (so you know I have no experience with how you are using it). It can definitely be used effectively without any harm.

The way I used it was only AFTER significant training in a particular command...where the dog already knew what to do and it was refining and perfecting and speeding up the response as well as proofing it. It also was used in a way that did not connect me with the chain.

The only hesitation I have with the way you are describing it to teach the dog to avoid certain things is if a dog was inclined to be fearful or nervous it might aggravate it. But I don't know for sure as I have no experience with how your trainer uses it. So it might be perfectly fine!

My preference in training is to work HARD at general obedience and refining those items (sit, stay, come, etc) to a level where the dog is very good at obeying in many environments before doing too much about 'naughty' behaviors (besides managing the dog so he can't do them). It seems most dogs respond better to "NO" and what you don't want them to do after being fairly solid in general obedience because of the general trust, respect and bond formed.

[Adrianne Matzkin]

Is this supposed to be used for a specific problem as a last resort or is this method used for all training?

[Yvonne, Riley, Murphy and Luca]

The trainer has me using it for everything.

[Adina P]

Everything as in everything you do NOT want your puppy to do? Or everything as in the correction for any time he doesn't perform a command properly? Or all of the above?

[Marianne *OZZY & ZOEY]

I would think you want him to respond to training and not to what he is suppose to out of fear...I only believe in positive reinforcement..Plenty of praise when they do what is right and a strong firm voice when it is wrong...I don't know what you are training for but I don't see a doodle having the personality for that type of training...Teaching your dog comands and tricks is suppose to be fun too....I know they do annoying things and as they get bigger it is worse that is why stop a bad habit before they think it is acceptable behavior..Sorry just my opinion.