When to neuter

[ks-man]

We have an almost 5 month old male Doodle.  I haven't seen any recent threads about when is the best time to neuter him.  My vet says 6 months but our breeder was more in favor of waiting until 10-12 months or even later if we wanted.  

The last two days I've noticed him humping his toy pillow and stuffed animal in the evening (his zoomie time).  I haven't seen him doing it to anything else nor does he play very aggressively (just playful).  I'm not sure if any of that matters or should come into the decision.

Anyway please let me know if you have any thoughts.  There seems to be a lot of research on both sides so I'd love to hear people's opinions around here.  

Thanks!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

We have had some discussions about this, one large discussion in particular in the Health Group. I'll find you a link.
I strongly urge you to follow your breeder's recommendations on this and wait to neuter him until he is a year old. You really need those hormones at least until the growth plates in the bones have closed, and that doesn't usually happen until they are close to a year old. I just had Jasper neutered at 14 mos, and his breeder really would have preferred that I wait until he was 18 months. Poodles are so leggy anyway, you don't want to end up with a dog who looks like he's on stilts, lol. And that can happen when you neuter too soon; it can cause orthopedic issues and there is even some thought that it can lead to certain kinds of cancer. So if you can wait, I would.

[Adina P]

Is that why breeder dogs seem less leggy?
As I browse breeder sites it seemed that most are shorter legged than any of my doodles have been. It was bugging me!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Are we talking about doodle breeders here? because it depends on the breeder and the breed, lol.

For example, Osteochondrodysplasia (dwarfism) runs in Poodles. Good Poodle breeders do testing for it, and don't breed two carriers together. But we know that very few doodle breeders have good quality Poodle stock. I see a lot of Poodles on doodle breeders' websites who look like they have osteochondrodysplasia, and a lot with poor conformation altogether. Plus, the ALD breeders seem to prefer that short-legged "blocky" look, so they may intentionally be choosing Poodles with shorter legs. And if you are looking at ALD breeders' sites, remember that there is a lot of Cocker Spaniel in many ALD lines, and Cockers are not long-legged.
So that may be part of it. 

[Adina P]

They aren't really "short" looking, just not the leggy doodles I prefer.  Or maybe the photos are deceiving...?
Rosco was stocky but also very long legged.  He was neutered at about 5 months.  

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

Riley is pretty leggy and was spayed at 7 months.  It's hard to tell under all the fur but she is very tall for her length, more poodle shaped than Bernese.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

With Poodles, ideally the back is about the same length as the legs. So if you took off the head and the tail, you'd have a square. 

I see a lot of Poodles on doodle breeders' websites whose backs are much longer than their legs. So that also makes the legs look longer. You want a "short" back in a Poodle. The Poodle breeders describe it as "short backed, up on leg". 

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

So is this about "ideal" shape then?  Those are some long legs!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'd say the legs are even a bit too long for the body, lol. But hard to tell the way he's standing. Usually the back legs are angled back a little bit (it's called "bend of stifle") which would elongate the back a little bit and bring the rump down. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This is a picture of one of Carol Brand's champion standards. This is pretty close to perfect structure in a Poodle. It's kind of hard to see the structure because she's in show coat, but I think you can visualize what I mean:

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

Ah, yeah. I was thinking the one I posted looked a bit *too* leggy but definitely has the short back.  

Riley definitely has more of the standard poodle shape than the Bernese shape.  Bernese are a lot longer in the back.  Better for pulling carts I guess ;)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

And that stocky body with the thick neck helps with draft work too. 

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

Yep.  I'm not sure if it's just her larger size or her Bernese traits but Riley is SO strong.  It's actually quite frightening sometimes lol.  We tether her to our dining table when we don't want her getting into mischief sometimes and if she gets too excited she pulls that thing halfway across the room seemingly without trying at all.  It's a solid teak table with extensions... it is on felt under the feet but still quite heavy!