Where do breeders get their dogs from?

[Discussing Labradoodles & Goldendoodles]

I was just thinking about how breeders get their dogs.Not me but a lot of people especially pure bred breeders are against mixed breeds unless they are from a rescue then its okay to adopt one.So if breeders are only looking for the betterment of their purebred dogs and to only improve that particular breed.Why would they sell a breeding dog to a breeder that breeds mixed breeds? No reputable breeder of a pure bred dog that cares about their breed and improving upon that breed would ever sell breeding stock to a breeder that breeds mixed breeds.It makes sense to me.So where are these premium  labradoodle  breeders and goldendoodle breeders getting their quality stock from.Once again im confused.What am i missing here?Please keep an open mind these are not my opinions and is not a stab at the awesome LD and GD.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

My question would be, if papers mean nothing and nobody cares about championships, etc., then why do so many doodle breeders mention that their breeding dogs are "AKC registered" or "from champion lines" on their websites?

Why mention this at all? It would appear that these things are mentioned by the breeder to show something positive about the dog.

If a breeder is going to say, "This poodle stud comes from championship lines",  then I think it is reasonable for a potential buyer to want to see the championship pedigree. If that would be a problem for any reason, then the breeder should talk about the stud's temperament, beauty, mention health clearances, but not mention pedigrees or championships at all.

If a breeder is going to highlight championships and lineage themselves, then it's fair to question that or ask for proof. If somebody can't provide that proof, for whatever reason, then don't bring it up, period.

[F, Calla & Luca]

The breeders put all that on their websites to attract buyers even if it gives buyers a false sense of security. Simple as that. And even if the breeder gave the buyer the papers it still might mean nothing.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Right. So if the papers and the championships mean nothing, why put the information there, like a tease, to attract buyers? Why mention it at all? If you don't want people to ask questions, why open that can of worms yourself?

[F, Calla & Luca]

Because most people think they mean something : )

[F, Calla & Luca]

Thanks for your reply Jaques. I have come to agree from reading about all the goings on among some breeders, that unless you have a breeder you trust, you practically need to be there to see the birth. And then,of course, you still don't know the true parentage of the parents! I have been fortunate that my dogs, who originated from Australian dogs, and we know that all kinds of bait and switch may have gone on there, have proven to be wonderful no matter who their ancestors were. It is a very sad state of affairs when all these papers are not reliable. Your criteria, health, intelligence, temperament, and personality are what's important.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I applaud you Adina for supporting differences of opinion. It is important to raise questions,  to find out more information, weigh the facts and make one's own judgments in the end. Hear, hear!

[Adina P]

I have a lot to say on this topic and have started writing a few times but decided against it. Not because what I had to say was offensive (I hope) but because I couldn't figure out a way to say it well.  In any case I think the difference between the top pure breed breeders who believe in championships and the top doodle breeders who don't is one of philosophy.  Not right or wrong, just different.  Just like two parents can choose different parenting styles -- neither is more 'right' except in their own mind due to their own world view and philosophy. 

I see the dog world as somewhat divided between dog & breed fanciers and pet lovers.  I will explain more later.

I personally would LOVE to see doodle breeders attempting championships.  It's not a deal breaker for me, but it would be an awesome addition to doodle breeding. After all if health & temperament is of utmost importance and health is objectively tested...why not objectively test temperament.  Perhaps it might be a good thing for doodle breed clubs to pull in the expertise of some behaviorists or trainers with proven track records and come up with a doodle-specific temperament evaluation for breeding dogs that can be taught to other evaluators around the country so that doodle breeders could start to have an objective 'proof' of a dog's temperament.  Especially those doodle breeders who live out in the boonies and few buyers can visit.  It might be the start of something other breeds might be interested in.   Or at least get the CGC or therapy dog eval done.  For a dog of good temperament that isn't too hyper, aggressive, or fearful...the CGC is a very easy test to prepare for and pass. It is NOT an obedience test and involves the least amount of work... a couple of months tops for a dog that is already socialized.

I think that some doodle breeders probably do have good breeding stock from pure breed breeders who just want to keep things hush hush.  Dog breeders aren't immune to trying to do things under the radar...even if those things are not inherently bad, but would violate some club's rules.

I also want to address Carol Brand and let everyone know she is welcome here.  We welcome any dog lovers and it is clear she is a dog lover.  She just happens to prefer poodles best.  Just like we prefer doodles best.  Our doodles are at least HALF poodle, though so I think her interest in the world of doodles is fair and justified.   IF she took on the role of troll and only came on here to blast doodles or breeders, then I would feel differently.  But she really has not behaved in such a manner.  She has given lots of advice in the training groups and shared techniques and tips to help other members train their dogs.  She has also given 'the other side' in debates and arguments about specific ideas.  I don't think she hates doodles even though she clearly is not a torch bearer for breeding mixes.  I also don't think it's a good idea to lock ourselves into a bubble full of only people who agree with us and never question anything that happens in the world of doodles.  The world of doodles is not holy and above reproach or beyond the need for checks and balances and improvement. 

I love labradoodles and goldendoodles -- they are my favorite type of dog.  I hope that doodle breeding continues and constantly improves and refines itself.  I hope that doodle lovers can appreciate the work and expertise it takes to breed healthy pure breeds and the desire to keep a breed true to an ideal.  I also hope that pure breed fanciers consider that there is more to dogs than being a perfect specimen of a breed and that sometimes there are other things people want in a dog.  IF both of those paradigms can be admired for their positive points, perhaps one day there will be more open communication between breeders of each preference and healthy stock of good temperament will be a given.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

I could not agree with this more. Well said.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Ditto

[Adina P]

By the way when I think of "championships" for doodles...I'm not thinking "Rosco Redfur of Living Streams" is the "Most Wonderful & Most Beautiful Doodle in the World with the best Doodle Butt and Loveliest Eyes"  type championships where Rosco Redfur is declared BETTER than other doodles.  What I'm thinking of championships that read more like the CGC.  In other words it would read something like this:
Rosco P Labradoodle had demonstrated competence in the 10 social, personality, and intelligence tests and has thus passed and earned the "Good Doodle" title.  THAT really is all that obedience titles reflect.  It's not about being 'fancy' or showing off (well maybe a wee bit because it takes some work to train and it's nice to have something to brag about =)).   And as much as many like to say "oh I don't need a dog that is all that perfect in obedience, I just want a loving companion..." based on the things most people worry and complain about when it comes to their dog obeying...they DO want a dog that obeys well enough for a Companion Dog title.  We do want a dog we can let off leash and who will come back when called.  We  do want a dog who will hold still when company comes and not rush the door.  We do want a dog who we can walk down the street without worrying about getting our arms yanked off and who won't lunge after things or pick things off the ground.  Getting those things to be consistent doesn't require LESS work than a companion dog title.

If I ever have time to work Boca again I am sure I can put a Companion Dog title on her.  The title merely proves that I'm not just flapping my lips...that I actually do have a dog that I was able to train in several important areas.  It's not that unattainable.

[Becka]

A doodle butt and doodle eyes championship would be awesome! I would totally be a judge for that. :)

I really appreciate what you've said here and earlier, Adina--I think you've done a very good job of articulating what's most important to you (and to many of us) in terms of your own dog and also doodles in general. I've learned a lot since joining doodle kisses and I very much appreciate the education.

[Adina P]

Maybe the imaginary test I'm envisioning would enable breeders to say:
Parent Doodle Rover is Temperament & Intelligence Certified.  Does 'Certified' sound less fancy and high and lofty than "Champion"'  In any case THAT is how I view championships in obedience and conformation.  I view them as certificates that a dog has passed the criteria to be an outstanding example of the breed.