Where do breeders get their dogs from?

[Discussing Labradoodles & Goldendoodles]

I was just thinking about how breeders get their dogs.Not me but a lot of people especially pure bred breeders are against mixed breeds unless they are from a rescue then its okay to adopt one.So if breeders are only looking for the betterment of their purebred dogs and to only improve that particular breed.Why would they sell a breeding dog to a breeder that breeds mixed breeds? No reputable breeder of a pure bred dog that cares about their breed and improving upon that breed would ever sell breeding stock to a breeder that breeds mixed breeds.It makes sense to me.So where are these premium  labradoodle  breeders and goldendoodle breeders getting their quality stock from.Once again im confused.What am i missing here?Please keep an open mind these are not my opinions and is not a stab at the awesome LD and GD.

[Chloe, Finley & Mama Shelley]

I see a lot about the Poodle lines, but was wondering about the flip side of this. My Chloe is I guess F1B, but it was the sire who was the Champion English Cream Golden, and the Mom is an F1B GD.(3/4 poodle 1/4 golden) Our breeder does the reverse with her female GD and breeds her back to a Golden, who is from a reputable breeder of Champion Eglish Creams. She pays a $1000.00 to use him as a stud. 

I will have to check with her, but my breeder mentioned that her female came from quality poodle lines, but I am not so sure about her history, but she did give me a copy of the sires pedigree..

[Carol Brand]

Champion English Cream Golden?  First of all, English Cream is a made up name sort of like Teacup Poodle or Royal Standard Poodle.  English/European type is the hot marketing term in Goldens these days.  Golden Retrievers are just Golden Retrievers in the USA, Canada and the United Kingdom.  

Do you know what country this dog is a champion in?   Do you know what his registered name is?  I can try to look it up for you in the Golden pedigree datatbase.  BTW... $1000 for a stud fee would be cheap for an AKC Champion dog.  Goldens are notoriously difficult and expensive to get a championship on because there are so many Goldens showing.  

[Chloe, Finley & Mama Shelley]

Actually the original Golden Retrievers are English, originating in Scotland, and the "American" have evolved from that. Yes there is only one breed, but there is definitely a difference. I do know what country the sire is from, he is imported from Poland, and has Scottish and Polish lines, as you can see from his pedigree.http://www.utahenglishgoldens.com/gentry.html . And yes he comes from Champion lines.

As far as the stud fee, both breeders are from small towns in Utah and are friends. My breeder is a registered nurse from England and was the nicest, most honest person I have ever dealt with, went to her home several times, and still email her from time to time. She knows the Golden Breeder and has used his stud Gentry for a few litters. I have no idea about stud fees myself, so I don't know what to compare with, nor does that matter to me. Her female is health tested also.

Along with my sweet GD Chloe, I also have a 2 year old English Golden, who is the most amazing dog I have ever owned, and I did a lot of research before we got him, so I am familiar with the over-used marketing of the "English Cream" Goldens, but a true imported English is very different than our Americans.

Let me know what you can find from his pedigree. All I know is I love my sweet girl, and I was merely joining in this discussion due to wondering about Chloe's generation.

[Carol Brand]

He is a lovely dog.  He is not, however a champion. I don't say that to be mean, but I wonder... were you told he was a Champion Golden Retriever? 

I think it is a misconception that the UK Goldens and the USA/Canadian Goldens are different.  I think this is because so many Americans are used to seeing weedie, BYB Goldens.  The show bred Goldens in the US are very similar to the show bred Goldens in the UK.

Here are videos from Crufts (you can see the winning Golden at :56) and Eukanuba:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5-_vyA017E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr2X0q62WNs

[Chloe, Finley & Mama Shelley]

I really don't know why I am bothering replying to you..but NO, I was not told he was a champion..no I dont care if he is, or isn't..

No, it is not a misconception that they are different, but the differences are as you said, from a lot of BYB.

I really don't understand your point, and after reading your profile, I am wondering why you are a member of this group? You obviously are against mixed breeds, and you only have poodles.. and this is a DOODLE group???

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Everyone is welcome here, DK has many members who do not own doodles.

Carol has been extremely helpful to many doodle owners on issues regarding training and lots of information on poodles, which after all make up at least half of our doodles.

[gkce5pjesxm9]

I hope you don't mind if I chime in on this discussion since I am a breeder of Labradoodles and love what I do and relish the fact that I can breed these wonderful hybrids without attending or participating in the 'Land of Competitions/Points and Championships'.  It quite simply is not my cup of tea.  Does that mean I am not a good breeder?  Hardly. 

It has already been pointed out that having an AKC dog in no way equates with having a 'quality' dog.  Having a dog from champion lines only means that dog looks like it is suppose to.  However, since all the champions of the Westminister and Crufts shows are ONLY based on what they look like now, not on how well they can do their heritage, it is pointless to ponder about improvement of the breed - most don't have a clue or worthy DNA to do what their ORIGINAL qualifications were.   A true competition would be to see the dogs in action.  I do realize there are some shows that do this, but it is not Westminister or Cruft champions.  Neither are the champions from these well known shows healthy!  Do any of you remember the King Charles Spaniel that took best of show a few years ago that spread the dreaded Syringomyelia Brain Disease to a number of his progeny?  That caused quite the stir.  Nope, Champion does not equate with health either.  To further my point, look at what man has done to the English Bull Dog, German Shepherd, Pug.... they have manipulated their shapes and confirmation so that they now can hardly breathe or have a strong backbone, but they will be champions because they have 'the look'. 

Many of the Labradoodles sold through Rutland Manor and Teagan Park do not have traceable pedigrees.  This is true.  It has taken a number of breeders a ton of money, effort, time and energy to do the very best they could with what they had.  Many do an exorbitant amount of testing to weed out the 'problem lines', and many others do not.  This is not an affliction of just hybrid breeders; it is ALL breeders.  There are backyard breeders and puppy mills all over the world that sell purebreeds and hybrids.  It is up to the person looking to purchase a dog to do their diligence with regard to proof of testing through the proper documentation (not website rhetoric).  Ask the right questions, visit the facility, meet the dogs.  Take the time to be thorough.  If a breeder does not have the time for you, move on.  There are great breeders of all types of dogs be it pure, mutt blend, hybrid or shelter adoptee.  It is up to you, the buyer, to do the work.   

Just because a dog, be it hybrid or pure bred, does not have a champion or points behind it does not make it an unworthy dog.  I breed Labradoodles for these reasons:

• I am not limited by closed stud books
• I believe in the dynamics of the reason the Labradoodle was created in the first place - a friendly, companion dog with a diversity of genes to be reasonably allergy friendly.
• To avoid contributing to the high inbreeding coefficients already established in most pure bred dogs.
• To continue to broaden the DNA and improve our hybrid by making the best choices for a mate.
• To refuse to ever agree to work towards being an AKC breed.  If I did not already love what the Labradoodle stands for, why would I ever breed it in the first place?

Sincerely,

Joyce Tabor of Annabelle Doodles of New England

[Carol Brand]

That is an excellent and well thought out reply Joyce.  Based on what you believe, if the purpose of the Labradoodle is to be a friendly companion dog, what sort of evaluation in your mind would prove that a Labradoodle stud or bitch was worthy of going back into the gene pool?  Is it only the breeder's point of view?  Is there some independent way to evaluate Labradoodle breeding stock like there is in the purebred world (i.e through show or performance?)  How is a buyer to evaluate the quality of breeding stock?

[gkce5pjesxm9]

No.  Just like there are no 'performance' tests for any companion type dog unless you want to consider the Canine Good Citizenship course.  :+)  When you are dealing with hybrids the rules are very different because each Labradoodle can be very different from the other.  I am sure you have seen this just by visiting websites. 

However, common sense dictates that you look for proper movement, balance, obvious physical flaws, intuition, intelligence, trainability, focus, TEMPERAMENT to just name a few.  I place a ton of value on the testing results and if those results will complement my girl along with confirmation.  My program is not about competition, so there is no 'official evaluation' other than extensive research and conversations with users of the stud in the past for their personal opinion of the pups produced.

My program's potential breeding stock begins at the litter's assessments at 7 and 9 weeks. After the assessments, all my pups get an eye CERF.  If my potential stock passes, they are placed in guardian homes to grow up for at least a year.  The guardians are required to do puppy classes for obedience and socialization.   All the dogs I keep are certified at two years old.  As a matter of fact, I just neutered one of my potential studs because my vet felt he would not receive better than an OFA 'Fair'.  His PennHIP was great at 70% but his brother is 80% with an OFA 'Good', so he will move on in my program.  

It is a very different world than that of the Poodle.  It is far more complicated as you are dealing with not one breed, but several.  It is like making a stew and deciding which 'vegetables' will bring out the best in the broth.  I love stews and savor the thought of the endless possibilities.  :+)

[F, Calla & Luca]

Those are excellent things to look for. In the end I think health testing of breeding dogs and the ethical standards of the breeder may be the most important ingredients in the stew. I love stew, too.

[gkce5pjesxm9]

The dog world has always been divided by those who want or need trophies and those that simply want a companion.  Both should require the same attention to health, temperament and structure to lead happy lives.

Funny about the AKC world....did you recently hear of the latest on the Bull Mastiff that won last year?  The breeder is breeding him to HIS DAUGHTER to produce the 'most perfect' Mastiff.  Case in point that 'looks' is what these organizations are all about.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Just as we rightly become upset by comments that all doodle breeders are (fill in the blank) , I think it is equally wrong to make a blanket statement that "looks is what these organizations are all about." That's condemning an awful lot of good ethical people who belong to "these organizations."

There are many purebreed show breeders who work very hard to produce dogs with low inbreeding coefficients and wonderful temperaments, and would never dream of breeding a dog to his own daughter for any reason.

Regarding titles, there are other kinds of trophies and titles than those associated with conformation or "looks". There are obedience titles, which require a tremendous amount of effort and commitment, and which to me would certainly show attention to producing a dog who is truly a wonderful companion.

I think the following quote explains this well:

What is a Title?

Not just a brag, not just a stepping stone to a higher title, not just an adjunct to competitive scores, a title is a tribute to the dog that bears it, a way to honor the dog, an ultimate memorial. It will remain in the record and in the memory, for about as long as anything in the world can remain. And though the dog herself doesn't know or care that her achievements have been noted, a title says many things in the world of humans where such things count.
A title says your dog was intelligent, adaptable, and good natured. It says that your dog loved you enough to do the things that pleased you, however crazy they may have sometimes seemed. In addition, a title says that you loved your dog. That you loved to spend time with her because she was a good dog and that you believed in her enough to give her yet another chance when she failed and in the end your faith was justified.

A title proves that your dog inspired you to that special relationship enjoyed by so few, that in a world of disposable creatures, this dog with a title was greatly loved, and loved greatly in return. And when that dear short life is over, the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend. Volumes of praise in one small set of initials after the name. An obedience, agility, flyball, herding, etc. title is nothing less than true love and respect, given and received and recorded permanently.
--Author unknown.