Cesar Milan

[Lynne B]

I disagree with many of Cesar Milan's methods, but I know he has quite a following...here's a website that Dr. Sophia Yin (a vet/trainer that I have much respect for) linked on her facebook page:
http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Oh, thank God! Finally, a source that clearly refutes the idea that "dogs are wolves"! Dogs are NOT wolves, of course, any more than people are apes, but it is amazing how many otherwise intelligent people continue to use the dog-as-wolf beliefs to validate everything from questionable feeding methods to irresponsible healthcare practices.
I know the focus of your discussion is CM's training methods, but I for one am glad that Dr. Yin addresses the false "wolf-pack" theories as well.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Yeah ....well I've never liked him....and I have never subscribed to his methods nor have I bought his $13 Vitamin Water either...lol..I have been criticized on this forum often for my negative opinions of the man and his methods and for making those opinions public.....

FYI- There is a fantastic group on Facebook that you might appreciate that quotes others as well as Dr Yin...

"Cesar Millan Is A Hack"
http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=cesar&init=quick#/group.php?g...

[fergie11]

I find the problem with Cesar is all his shows are about fixing a bad problem. I'd like to see someone have a regular show about training a dog that has not yet been broken. I'd like someone to show us how to teach fun tricks and stuff. Also I do not believe that a half hour - hour of exercise solves all problems. I know exercise is great for all dogs (and people too) but he emphasizes that way too much. I liked Cesar at first but after taking numerous obedience classes with my dogs I like him less and less. Most of us though, do not have the same type of dog he deals with. We start with a great healthy puppy with very few bad habits - this is a different thing than what Cesar shows on his shows. Also most of his shows (that I've seen anyway) deal with city dogs - on leashes always. My girls are never on leashes. I guess i've just never had any of those horrible problems to deal with that he shows on there. I'm glad of that.

[Lynne B]

I have a friend who is an animal behaviorist. She occasionally holds puppy classes. She said that since so many people think Cesar Milan is the 'god of dog training' she now has to conduct her first class without puppies present and spend 90 minutes unteaching his methods. She said that before she did that, people were bringing little puppies to her class snapping and jerking leashes, making sssshhh noises for no reason at all, and some were even running their puppies or putting them on treadmills before class..she said she was appalled.

Her comment to me was "Cesar Milan's methods are useless, counterproductive and cruel. You can 'rehabilitate' a dog in one of two ways- by suppressing the behavior (which is what Cesar does) or by extinguishing the behavior (which is done by positive training methods) She said if you have an aggressive dog, do you really want the behavior suppressed, so that it can resurface again without notice, or do you want to permanently change the behavior and have a trustworthy dog?

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-t...

Veterinary Behaviorists Take a Stand Against Cesar Millan

In February 2009, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) issued a "position statement" about the use of punishment for behavior modification in animals, detailing 9 possible adverse effects of negative reinforcement (punishment) training. While not naming any trainers by name, the statement was written to counter Millan's techniques featured on his National Geographic channel show, The Dog Whisperer.

According to an article by Timothy Kirn for the VIN News Service:

"The AVSAB recommends that veterinarians not refer clients to trainers or behavior consultants who coach and advocate dominance hierarchy theory and the subsequent confrontational training that follows from it," the position statement says.

That statement was initiated with Millan in mind, says Dr. Laurie Bergman, of Norristown, Pa., a member of AVSAB's executive board.

"We had been moving away from dominance theory and punitive training techniques for a while, but, unfortunately, Cesar Millan has brought it back," she says.

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=12230

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Stat...

In June 2009, Merial, the manufacturer of Frontline and Heartgard, announced a partnership with Millan to promote these products. The promotion included a free Millan training video with purchase and other prizes. Calls to oppose this partnership where issued by both the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) and American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB).

Why all of the fuss?

I do not watch much television, and haven't seen a full episode of The Dog Whisperer. A few days ago, I received an email from a veterinarian specializing in animal behavior, urging me to watch this Dog Whisperer video clip. I admit, it was a difficult video to watch. In this video, Cesar Millan uses a choke collar to subdue an aggressive dog, finally pinning it on the ground. Millan is bit several times in the process, and I question the health of the dog during this clip (blue tongue). Debra F. Horwitz, DVM, DACVB, a board-certified veterinary behaviorist, offers her commentary of the video here: dog training gone bad.

http://veterinarycommunity.dvm360.com/_dog-training-gone-bad/blog/4...

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

I actually watched Cesar Milar for the first time the other night. It was on before a new show on Nat Geo called Unleashed Ink - awesome show by the way!! I got about 15 minutes into the show and thought "what a moron" and quit watching! I have heard many people talk about what a wonderful trainer he is. I didn't see it nor did I agree with any of his methods. LOL

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

I feel the same way, Denise. I have tried watching it several times and shut it off because he pi^^ed me off with his methods and condescending attitude. I have read many things on training and can never see myself doing ANY of his methods. They go against everything I believe in. If it is a "weak woman" who trains dogs (or kids or husbands or) with love first then discipline then I am proud to be a "weak woman." And CM would never make it in my house. I have 4 dogs, all rescues and all see me as Alpha. All come to me for snuggles and kisses, I'd rather have that then what he is offering.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=20444826822

Cesar Millan Is A Hack

Cesar Millan has as much business training dogs as a dog has driving a car. His lack of credentials and outdated, harmful training methods should have never brought him to fame. Like a fad diet, he was marketed to America as a quick-fix for animal behavior, requiring no thought or effort. Real dog trainers, behaviorists, and animal experts know that his training strategy is dangerous, both for the animal and for the human handler.

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm (Responses to common statements from fans)
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-05-05-dog-whisperer_x.htm (Lawsuit due to injury as a result of his methods)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950CE3DF1E3EF932A057... (New York Times)
http://www.urbandawgs.com/luescher_millan.html (DVM Behaviorist from Purdue examines Millan's techniques)
http://www.iaabc.org/articles/dog_whisperer.htm (Concerns about child safety from the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9... (Comparison of Millan to a qualified trainer)

Quotes:
"Millan's techniques are almost exclusively based on two techniques: Flooding and positive punishment. In flooding, an animal is exposed to a fear (or aggression) evoking stimulus and prevented from leaving the situation, until it stops reacting. To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress. Flooding has therefore always been considered a risky and cruel method of treatment.

. . . The last episode (compulsive disorder) is particularly unsettling because compulsive disorder is related to an imbalance in neurotransmitter levels or receptors, and is therefore unequivocally a medical condition. Would it be appropriate to treat obsessive compulsive disorder in people with punishment? Or have a layperson go around treating such patients?" -Andrew Luescher, DVM

"Mr. Millan builds his philosophy from a simplistic conception of the dog's ''natural'' pack, controlled by a dominant alpha animal (usually male). In his scheme, that leader is the human, which leads to the conclusion that all behavior problems in dogs derive from the failure of the owner or owners to dominate. (Conveniently, by this logic, if Mr. Millan's intervention doesn't produce lasting results, it is the owner's fault.)

Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of ''Dog Whisperer,'' Mr. Millan explains that a woman is ''the only species that is wired different from the rest.'' And a ''woman always applies affection before discipline,'' he says. ''Man applies discipline then affection, so we're more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don't follow lovable leaders.''
-Mark Derr, author of ''A Dog's History of America: How Our Best Friend Explored, Conquered and Settled a Continent.'',

World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan’s methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:

“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers

"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

"Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."
Vyolet Michaels, CTC (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ

"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"

Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:

“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”

"I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated... I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
Steve Dale

[Tara L P]

I strongly disagree with this letter. Especially the first few quotations suggesting treatment of a dog should be comparable to treatment of a human. Most of the dogs Cesar works with have major discipline issues and now hard-to-break traits because the owners treated their dogs like humans.

I can think of ONE EPISODE which episode Cesar uses flooding--exposing a dog to the fear stimuli and leaving it until it stops reacting. And I've had marathon weekends of Dog Whisperer. It went like this:

A terrier dog was obsessed with getting under a recliner (once the husband sat down in it) and growling, snapping, and being obnoxiously aggressive if the other terrier came near/anyone tried to pull him out. Cesar did spend about 30-45 minutes using the flooding technique--Cesar claiming the recliner his--forcing the terrier to back out. BUT once the dog had come out he taught the owners that the dog NEVER should be allowed underneath the chair to begin with. They claim the chair theirs, the dog doesn't go under the chair and they don't have to deal with getting him out.

The third and fourth paragraphs are just stupid, IMO.
3rd paragraph--Whose fault, is it exactly, if it isn't the owners fault for a dogs misbehavior--certainly not my responsibility, huh?!?
4th paragraph--Cesar has numerous times praised children (including young females) for 'getting it' in regards to how simple it is to train a dog. Watch the episode, "Desperate House Dogs"

I have seen Cesar use muzzles many more times than i've seen him use choke collars. Leerburg uses FAR more aggressive techniques--and I still respect him--when it comes to dealing with difficult breeds. Of COURSE you're not going to have to use Leerburg's techniques on a doodle!!

Cesar also did a special on puppy mills that is extremely moving and motivating. He worked wonders with a few toy poodles/malteses that'll make your heart smile.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Oh please!..........He did the "Puppy Mill Show" to jump on the awareness wagon and toot his own horn!....It was a day late and a dollar short in my opinion...Everything that man does is for self-promotion especially now that his empire is threatened by his pending divorce from his business manager /wife..

No one is saying that Cesar's methods can't work when it comes to powerful breeds with serious aggression issues but they simply do not apply to the average family pet.....aggression breeds aggression in my book and I think you will find that most reputable dog trainers and behaviorists agree...

BTW-throwing a dog on it's back and immobilizing it rendering it helpless to defend itself or react is most definitely considered a form of "flooding".......There is not an episode of Dog Whisperer that doesn't include that Cesar maneuver.......

[Charlie and Me (and JoJo, too!)]

OK. Bit late to this--looks like things have picked up again with Cesar. A few thoughts.

First, pinning a dog down on its back is called an “alpha roll.” It’s a different technique than “flooding.” To state that “there is not an episode of Dog Whisperer that doesn’t include that Cesar maneuver” is just wrong. Cesar, like any good trainer (he actually would claim NOT to be a trainer but a psychologist or behaviorist), is consistent with his method. That method consists of exercise, discipline, and affection. Those you will find in every episode.

Second, you are probably correct; Cesar’s methods likely do not need to be applied to the average family pet. In fact, I have watched a couple seasons of Dog Whisperer, and I have yet to see him deal with a Doodle. Mostly, he is called in as a last resort to deal with large, aggressive breeds or smaller breeds that have not been properly socialized/trained. Cesar would be the first to admit that his methods are not for everyone. He has stated repeatedly that if you have something that works for your dog, whether his method or other, that is what you should apply. See the link below for an insightful reply to some of his critics (and his defense of the alpha roll).

Third, it’s tiring to hear people complain about Cesar employing choke collars. Almost always, Cesar will use whatever “tool” the owner has been using. Also, this assumes that choke collars are inhumane, which is debatable.

Finally, paraphrasing the Monks of New Skeete and applying to Cesar, what I find troublesome about so many of Cesar’s critics is the self-righteous tone that often accompanies their critique, as if their method, and their method alone, is humane and compassionate. If you train your dog with clickers and treats, you may have tremendous success. But I don’t think that means you automatically love your dog more than someone who uses choke collars and “flooding” to train their dog. Exercise is not inhumane, and discipline is not abuse.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060731-dog-whispere...

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

Isnt this interesting. I watch Cesar all the time. I find his methods logical and basically common sense. I have never perceived him as being an "abusive" trainer. He believes in showing the dog you are the boss. He immitates a bite by the "poke", he gets out of control dogs to basically "get a grip", and if it means making them submit when they are being agressive, rebellious and needing desperately to be put in their place, I personally dont have a problem with that and would automatically, naturally lean towards this if I had a dog that was thinking it was either above me in rank or didnt have to listen to me as master. We have all seen monster dogs that need to be knocked down a few pegs and I think Cesar does it just right.

I have never seen Cesar use the domineering methods on soft dogs. There is no need to poke Abby or Kaela and get her to submit to my leadership because she naturally does. I have seen him use the methods of getting the dog in the line where the dogs seriously needed to be put in their place, rightfully so. But I have seen him be soft with soft dogs.

I have on the odd occasion implemented the Cesar methods, not because these are methods that I learned from him, but because they come automatically for me. For example if Abby is going berzerk on the end of her leash trying to bowl over a toddler in greeting, and she isnt listening to the loving "sit and stay" ..... damn right I will grab her and get her attention in a not so sugary way and sit and hold her arse down. It shows I mean business and I WILL have the behavior I want right this instant!

I dont think giving a leash a quick jerk, or a quick poke with your hand is abuse anymore than I think tapping you on the shoulder and turning your face towards me is abuse.

I also find interesting the "dogs arent wolves" thing. No they arent but even Tamar Gellar in her "The loved dog" definitely is treating dogs as wolves...and she is the one so many rave about.

I guess being a mother of 4 sons and being raised the way I was makes me believe in discipline. Discipline is not punishment, or abuse but I am certainly not going to blow sugar up the butts of my kids and let them turn around and walk on me. Most total bleeding heart parents dont have good results with their children. They end up being rotten brats one doesnt even want to be in the same room with. I love my children, I shower them with physical affection and kindness, but I am not going to negotiate good behavior either. My sons have never thrown tantrums in the store, and yes you can take them to the restaurant with you! They will not throw food, or spit on the waitress. LOL!

So in this debate I am on the pro Cesar Milan side.