New age methods...

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

This is bound to be a hot one.
Before I begin I am throwing in the disclaimer that I do infact follow the modern reccommended methods of dog rearing (for the most part)...I use positive reinforcement like "the books" say to do.

But.... (here is the controversial part)

I dont know how much of the new modern methods are actually psychobabble intended to idiot-proof the general public to protect themselves from the dodo's of the world who will do things to an extreme. For example the breastfeeding thing is pushed so hard here. We all know it is baby's ideal food but I also know for a fact from an insider in the Northern Health Authority here that it also tends to help prevent lazy, ignorant, impoverished mothers of questionable class from making formula in an unhygienic way, from substitutuing cows milk, or even kool-aid in the bottle. Also in third world countries where the water source is contaminated the baby always has fresh, healthy breast milk. But a responsible intelligent person of resource nourishing a baby with a good quality formula is just as good. If one chooses to breastfeed, fantastic! But they shouldnt be strong armed into it with propoganda meant to save babies that actually need to be saved. I am not an indigent, transient, impoverished unintelligent person who needs to be pushed by nipple nazi's to breastfeed my baby. I am capable of nourishing him by the method of my own choice. Be it breast or bottle.

Then there is the "spanking debate"....no need to say more.

Now what I am getting at in the long roundabout way is that I dont know if I, truly in my heart, believe this new age method of "the dog doesnt have a memory so you cant reprimand her for peeing/pooping in the house unless you catch them in the act". I tell you ladies a part of me thinks this is baloney! The "old way" was to grab the dog rub his nose in it and out the door they went! I think those dogs got housebroken faster. Personally I am too much of a softie to be that harsh but I tell you it seems they really did get it faster.

And I dont believe the memory is as short as books say. If I come into the room and see pee on the floor all three dogs are looking at me guilty! (Even the old one who hasnt peed in a dozen years - lol) LOL So they know it is not kosher. If I walk towards the puddle of pee saying "who did this????" I will see little butts scurry away. They always know exactly what I am talking about .

I do show it to Kaela (praying I got the right dog - lol) and say "this is Duties! Duties NOT in the house" Then I put her out. I have done this with Abby as well. I dont just ignore it.

So it leads me to wonder how much of it is publicity to stop people from beating the tar out of their pets. To idiot proof the general public. To stop them from abusing their dog. Face it, no authority will ever say it is OK to spank a child for fear that people will take it as a licence to beat the tar out of them. And no public authority will ever say it is OK to reprimand a pet for fear people might take it as their right to abuse the pet.

I think it is OK to give the dog a mild reprimand for "duties" after the fact, and I think they do infact remember doing it.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

Well I think that the method wasnt literally "rubbing" I think it was actually more putting the nose towards it to show the dog what the problem is - the turd or the puddle. And to stress that it was not acceptable where it was.

I personally dont believe that thing about the dog having no mental capacity or memory to make the connection unless it was within 5 seconds or less of the deed occurring. If you bring them over to the puddle and say "hey dude whats this about...not kosher buddy - it is done only outside" I think they get that. At least mine do - they are after all exceptionally brilliant! Abby can remember that the toy she lost under the couch 3 days ago - is infact under the couch when she goes looking for it. Kaela can remember that I like dogs to sit because she already sits and puts up a paw when she thinks I may be looking in the pantry for treat for her. Thats memory.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The automatic sit, I don't think that's memory. I think that's just rote training. Jackdoodle does that too, sits automatically if he thinks he's getting a treat, he does it every time the vet turns toward the drawer where the treats are kept, even if the vet is actually getting a syringe, lol.
But remember that a ball is under a couch? Now you may have something there...JD can't remember where his ball is when it's right in front of him.

[Adina P]

I agree they can remember...I do NOT agree that THAT type of memory helps them in such a situation. Object permanence and names of things are very different in my humble estimation than understanding that the reason you're pissed at them is because they pooped in the HOUSE.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

When a child writes on the wall. You dont shout. You dont just think "oh I better wash it off because I didnt catch him in the act" You bring the child to the wall with the crayon and say "Nathan you colored on the wall, you mustnt do this, walls are not for coloring on" You then bring the child to the table sit him down and give him back the crayon and give him some paper. This method works and my children never colored on the walls more then the one time. Now I am not animorphisizing (or whatever that word is when humanify the animal - lol) But I believe the cognitive ability of the dog isnt far off from that 2 yr old. In my humble opinion LOL. You spare the Dr. Philish lecture but I think you can show her the poo/pee say a stern "no duties in the house" and present to her the backyard. I think they get it.

[Adina P]

Just the fact that kids CAN use language and speak means, to me, that they have a much higher ability to understand language than dogs do. I started speaking at 9 months...by 2 I was a motormouth. I am SURE I could understand full sentences and what you mentioned above about coloring in certain places. I am NOT convinced dogs get that. Just think about how many repetitions it takes to teach most dogs ANY trick or behavior reliably. It may be rote sort of stuff...but I imagine things they should NOT do would also require a lot of repetition unless they themselves found the doing of that thing dangerous or scary. I don't think dogs want to please that bad to stop a behavior JUST because you didn't like it. They have to find the connection between the act and your irritation VERY undesirable and the connection needs to be clear. I can talk to my dogs till I turn blue...they have no clue what I'm saying unless I say things I always say when we do something fun: Do you want to go on a trip? Who's Hungry? Breakfast? Let's go on a walk! They catch the words and intonation that they've learned but they have no idea what "who's hungry?" means ... they just know it indicates food is coming.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

You know I am going to sound like a ridiculous braggart, but I didnt have to repeat "sit" more than 3 times, "shake-a-paw "3 times. "rollover" maybe 4, and "touch" maybe 4. Kaela I swear got "sit" first time and "shake a paw" 3rd time, touch twice. Seriously! No repetitions involved before they got those. The hardest one was "rollover" which took maybe 4-5 times.

[Adina P]

the key was "reliably" -- smart dogs learn fast...but they aren't reliable fast.
Will either of yours sit for petting from strangers? when the doorbell rings? when a doggy comes up to them? or anytime you ask?
X = do this is easy to learn...but complex things like doing it in A-Z circumstances or NOT doing something don't happen after a 5 min practice session.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Studies show that the smartest dog in the world is not as smart as an average three-year-old child. By the time the child is old enough to be coloring at all, he has the ability to understand your language, and the concepts behind the words. (I sooo remember that same example: "We only color on paper, only on the paper", lol)
But I don't think a dog has that ability, no matter how smart he is. He may know that his treats are in the pantry, and he may recognize words like "walk", "potty", etc. but I just don't think they can make choices based on mental reasoning. I think everything with them basically is learned behaviors from constant repetition/reinforcement until their reactions are automatic. Jack learned to sit for a treat because that behavior brought him an immediate reward. I know he doesn't actually think to himself, "If I sit, I will get a treat"...he just does it, because it's a learned behavior. I do think that scolding a dog over doing "duties" in the house will cause him to try to avoid the scolding by not doing duties in the house...not because he understands that it's bad to do duties in the house, but because when he does duties in the house, something unpleasant happens to him. Nathan, on the other hand, understands the concept that coloring on the wall is a bad thing to do, and why.

[Adina P]

That is a very telling study you've mentioned in the past. No matter how smart our dogs may seem....their intelligence is WAY below ours. They have senses and abilities we do NOT...but they aren't that capable of understanding the concepts we do. I think when we remark "wow that dog is smart!" or "Wow my dog did such a smart thing!" it's because we don't expect certain things. But that doesn't make them 'smart' on the whole...just smart for a dog. My dogs do smart things now and then, but I know they are nowhere near a human in intelligence.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Yup = especially since dogs LIKE pee and poop smells! However the dragging them outside while yelling......

[Lynne B]

Positive dog training really evolved from Dolphin training. Dolphins are very smart, they learn as quickly, or even more quickly than dogs do. But when training a dolphin, you just can't punish it, nor can you drag it around on a choke chain or alpha roll it, etc. If you were to try to it would probably grab you drag you to the bottom of the pool and hold you there until you quit breathing.

Animal behaviorists realized that what did work when training dolphins was using a lure, and shaping behavior. They actually have to wait for the dolphin to do something 'sort of like' they want, then they reward it, then they 'shape' the behavior -perfecting it by withholding the reward until the behavior came closer to what they were looking for.

As they did this, they realized it could probably be applied to dogs and other animals, so it's not new age, it's not wishy washy- it just works!

As far as memory dogs have great memories, they remember visitors to my home that they haven't seen for years! But reprimanding a dog 5 minutes after it poops on your carpet doesn't work very well, it associates the reprimand with what it was just doing prior to the reprimand - not pooping 5 minutes ago. If you catch them pooing, and reprimand them,interrupt their activity and put them where they should be going potty it works very nicely.

By the way- I am not just making this stuff up, I have a friend who is an animal behaviorists and is currently training giraffes at a zoo if you can believe that!

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

That would be an awesome job! Something you could really stick your neck out for and feel appreciated in the end!

;o))