Surgical Debarking Pro's Vs Con's - Interesting Article.........

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

Ok all let's debate!  The topic is surgically debarking a dog.  Here is an article that I found that gives information on both views...........................

 

"Debarking dogs is a controversial topic. Some feel it is simply wrong to subject an animal to unnecessary surgery. Further they feel the dog may be emotionally damaged by loss of its voice. Most argue that with training, most dogs, even the “barky” breeds can be trained to bark less frequently. They see debarking as a lazy and cruel method for getting a dog to be quieter.

Supporters of debarking argue that the procedure saves the lives of many dogs that might be sent to pounds because of incessant barking. Some people acquire a dog that barks frequently and are soon immersed in struggles with neighbors who must listen to the dog barking at all hours of the day and night.

For some this means trying to find the dog another home, or simply sending the dog to the pound. Since many dogs never get adopted and are euthanized, supporters see debarking as a far better choice.

Additionally, those who support debarking also state they feel there is no significant evidence suggesting that debarking causes emotional damage to the dog. Since the dog can still bark, though quietly, it has not had its main “warning weapon” stolen. Most dogs that are debarked are usually subject to less remonstration and punishment by owners; so proponents of debarking suggest that dogs that are debarked are actually happier."

 

 

 

"Surgical debarking, also known as a vocal cordectomy, is sometimes used as an intervention for chronic barking. In a cordectomy, a veterinarian either makes an incision in the dog's throat or enters through his mouth, and cuts away the animal's vocal cords. Working through the throat provides the surgeon with a superior view, which allows him to remove more of the tissue. Hence, you are likely to get better results with a throat procedure."

 

I brought this up because I have a very close friend that is a sheltie breeder and sheltie's are known to be chronic barkers.  She has had I would say 1/2 of her shelties debarked - the one's that are chronically non-stop barkers. I see a way more relaxed atmosphere for all of her dogs together because the "barkers" and not upsetting and making the other "non-barkers" bark.  To me the de-barked dogs do not even realize they have lost the loudness to their bark because they still bark like crazy only its a whisper bark.  I do have mixed feelings about an "elective" surgery but then again what is the difference between a tail being docked for cosmetic purposes or say a schnauzers or doberman's ears being clipped to stand straight?  Lucky for me Hunter is not a barker!  I am not sure what I would do if she was.............

 

Let's Debate!

[Roxanne Ochs]

Wow. This is a tough one. I have a neighbor that has a Yorkie and a mixed breed that are barkers from the time she lets them out till they go back in the house and she's tried everything from training to bark collars and nothing works. I think if I were the complaining kind I would suggest this surgery but I'm not. It's an individual decision. I personally wouldn't do it and thank heavens CeeGee's not a barker and I don't have to try to make that decision.

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

I have to completely agree with your point of view on this being an individual decision just as tail docking and ear clipping are. Ok but say you were for "hypothetical" reasons a "complainer" and this neighbors dog drove you crazy and the neighbor did try everything they could, without success, to control their dogs barking. You as the complainer have called the police, dog warden, etc. etc. etc. This neighbor is faced with getting rid of their dog, and possibly end up in a kill shelter along with 1000's of others or would you support the neighbors decision to have this dog debarked to live happily ever after with its family? Would you still be 100% opposed to debarking this dog surgically? I am really finding all of the answers very interesting since I know someone who debarks and I have been on the fence on if it was "humane" or not........

[F, Calla & Luca]

I don't approve of this debarking procedure except in dire circumstances when all else, has failed.The vocal cords help expel foreign matter from the trachea, at least in humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_folds
dogs can be trained with effort and perseverance if they are barking excessively. I don't approve of the tail docking, or ear straightening, either BTW.

[Zoe, Benny and Tyler]

Interesting topic but I have a clear opinion. I am totally against debarking as well as I am against all surgeries for cosmetic purposes like ear clipping or tail docking.
I think if you have a dog which is constantly barking that there is a way to correct this behaviour with a lot of patience and training. I can understand that peole see the surgery as a last help before they need to give their dog away because neighbors are filing constantly complaints about the dog.
Still I think you should consider to discuss this with the neighbors and ask for a certain amount of time to correct the behavior instead of waiting that the list of complaints gets really long.
I also can understand that families get desperate and are close to a nervous breakdown if they own a dog which barks constantly.
First of all I think it is important to find out what triggers the barking. Is the dog bored because it doesn't get enough exercise or walks (free run in the garden is in my eyes not enough), is the dog alone for a long time during the day, is it separation anxiety because the owners have never worked or trained the dog to stay alone for a while, is it territory defense because the dog thinks that it is his/her task to protect the "pack" because the dog has never learned that we humans are the pack leaders????
I think barking can have a lot of reasons and once you have found out WHY the dog is showing this behaviour you can work on this and with a lot of time, consistency in training and patience you will see improvements and eventually correct this behaviour completely.
I also don't believe in electronic collars against barking because it is just an easy and conveniant method for us humans to "punish" unwanted behaviour.
Benny was never a barker but Tyler is an impatient energetic puppy and showed every now and then barking when it was not appropriate especially when he doesn't get what he wants. From on the beginning I have worked on this behaviour and if it still happens that he barks when it is not appropriate I can stop him immediately with a command.
When I trained on leaving the boys home alone together we left a webcam on and they never barked.
So from my side it is a clear NO to surgical debarking because if you offer alternatives to the dog you will be able to correct it otherwise.

[Adina P]

That is a good point about possibly the dog having an unmet need that is then ignored with debarking.  I.E. Anxiety, boredome, lack of exercise.  If there is root cause that is relatively fixable but is ignored than the dog 'suffers' possibly because he continues barking with no resolution to the unmet need.  I would say that in some of those cases bark collars would be way WAY better because they would stop the barking rather than just mute it.  Barking can be self-reinforcing and getting the dog to stop can break SOME vicious cycles.  e

[Adina P]

My approach would always be:
Train the dog and don't let him do that! (a quote from an excellent trainer I know).

If that failed (along with adequate exercise, stuff to do) then I would have no objection to using a bark collar if the barking was to a point where it disturbed neighbors or drove me insane. With the exception of, perhaps anxiety barking, it would very likely fix the situation. The problem is, however, that if the dog is in the house, and does not have a direct line of sight to the outside world...it may be an anxiety issue, in which case the bark collar isn't very helpful and the dog will likely bark through the stims.

One thing to remember is that a bark collar need only give a stimulus a few times and then the dog learns exactly how to prevent stims and does not bark with it on. It's not like the dog is getting shocked all day long with a bark collar on if it's being used for boredom barking or barking at passerby, etc.

Because training and/or bark collars work so darn well the vast majority of the time I would say that debarking is 99%+ of the time is an unnecessary and excessive use of invasive surgery. But I don't think it's the end of the world as it seems that debarked dogs don't really notice...? Although if it does indeed cause other physical problems, I might rethink my position.

I think where I hear about it most, besides those who have not properly used training/electronic collars...is where someone owns many dogs and then management and training gets tougher.

[Zoe, Benny and Tyler]

Well Adina, if you have more dogs than you can train still the solution shouldn't be surgical debarking. I know that your thought is hypothetical but in this build up case You have made the decision to get all these dogs and you should have thought about it before getting them if you are able to give each of them enough time for one on one training. The dogs shouldn't suffer from mistakes we humans make.

[Adina P]

Oh I agree Zoe! (and I think I changed my statement just as Zoe was responding in case anyone is wondering what Zoe is responding to). But let's say someone has 5 dogs (or a breeder has more)...and everything was fine until the youngest dogs reached a certain age and then BAM! they've revved up the rest to start barking their heads off. Assuming these dogs are otherwise well cared for...well...I'd just snap on bark collars on all of them. To me that IS more humane. It's clear when the bark collars are on and they need to be quiet...they learn fast. Once they learn (which doesn't take long) they do NOT bark and they do NOT get stims from the collar.

But yes, ultimately, don't take on more dogs than you can keep manageable for your sanity or that of others. And then if you've got them, train them.

[Zoe, Benny and Tyler]

Well said especially the last sentence.
Another scenario:
What do you do when you get a rescue dog with this issue and you don't know anything about the things which have happened in the past with the dog?
Training will take anyway much longer as you need to slowly build up trust and working on this issue could take years then.

[Adina P]

You train the rescue dog too.  But I don't believe you should assume the dog had a horrible and abused past unless YOU KNOW with certainty it did.  We humans have a much harder time with the past than dogs do.  They merely learn a conditioned response to things that bothered them...they aren't dwelling on it or crying to sad songs on the radio because the lyrics speak to their hurt.  When you don't know the past of the dog you treat it as 'The Past':  Stuff that is no longer his current life, thank goodness!' And then move on accepting his weaknesses and challenging the dog to move past them with love and training.  

[Adina P]

Ultimately, I'm against debarking enough to argue against it. But not against it enough to want it to be illegal or force anyone's hand in their choice. If it's not proven harmful (which perhaps it is?) and doesn't endanger the dog nor done maliciously ...

[F, Calla & Luca]

Aside from all the morality issues, I cannot imagine a dog being debarked without general anesthesia. I very much doubt it would be possible. There are always serious risks including death, though slight, with general anesthesia. Also, any scarring or fibrosis of the trachea could present difficulties as well.