GIARDIA Struggles

[Dr Karen Hoving]

Greetings all.

I'm new so apologies if I've put this on the wrong place!

Bella (5 1/2 mo Sheepadoodle) had some diarrhea prior to xmas. I did the chicken/rice/pumpkin diet. It didn't get better but vet was closed over xmas weekend and day after. So we went in on Tuesday. They did a fecal test at the vet and sent one out. GIARDIA- she then said it was either "medium" or "Moderate" ?

She put her on Flagyl (a 7 day script) and 5 days of Panacur. The first day on the Flagyl (she started with that first, then added the Panacur day 2)  her poop was great! Then we had issues getting the panacur down her- tried Peanut Butter(a bunch of people online said that was a good option) and she ate it. Her poop went back to mush. Vet's assistant said that it might be the peanut butter so I put it in pumpkin (real pumpkin not the pumpkin pie stuff) and divided it up into 2 dishes one am, one pm.

We are on day 6 and her poop still looks mushy! The vet is closed (I'm going to call tomorrow) but i don't know if this is normal. I know Giardia can be a bugger to get rid of. Is this bc of the antibiotics perhaps? I added Goats Milk (as Probiotic) about 3 days ago (1/2 cup according to bottle-for her weight which is 34 lbs).

Now 2 of her "puppy walking buddies" have it (so we are avoiding them obviously). The vet told us she could be around other dogs 72 hours after the antibiotics. We told everyone-they weren't worried. BUT the bottom line is since dogs can have giardia but be asymptomatic, and we all walk at the same park, we don't know (nor does it matter) where it started. 

So, in your non-professional opinions (disclaimer in other words) could she have been reinfected while on meds?Again her poop was normal the first day after Flagyl, then went mushy (could it be the Panacur? Although research says that is better for it that Flagyl).

Also she's not pooping more often, 2-3 x a day- its just pudding.

If you have any advice or thoughts let me know-

Hugs,

Karen and Bella 

[Sarah N]

We had a lot of struggles with giardia/diarrhea with our doodle when he was a puppy. I would go back to the vet and have them do a more extensive fecal culture to rule out the possibility that another bug is causing his issues (and may be why he is still having symptoms despite the treatment). 

Our Benny ended up getting a bacterial overgrowth following successful treatment of the giardia. Flagyl is very effective at treating giardia, but can also totally through the gut bacteria out of whack in the process. Pro-biotics didnt touch it, but we ended up putting him on a very gentle (and cheap!) macrolide antibiotic called tylocin (or Tylan Powder) which worked wonders. There is a disorder in dogs called "Tylan-responsive diarrhea", which is non-infectious diarrhea which responds to Tylan powder for reasons that are not fully understood. Benny was on Tylan powder for a good six months, but he is now 18 months, off of it, and totally healthy from a GI standpoint (except for the one time he ate a bird in the backyard... but thats a story for another day...).

Good luck! GI issues with a puppy can be frustrating, but can be effectively dealt with!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Tylan is used for many digestive diseases in dogs and it's very benign. Jack is on it for his IBD. I don't think it will kill giardia, though. 

There is a human probiotic, VSL#3,  that has shown amazing results in clinical studies in dogs with serious digestive diseases. It's much, much more effective than any of the probiotics that are made for animals. I've got a post about it here in the Health Group.  A few people here have used it with good results, including me. :) If Benny ever has any GI issues again, you might look into it. 

[Dr Karen Hoving]

Thank you SO much for the response and suggestion about Tylan. I was going to see the vet tomorrow (the first appointment was so expensive -she did the pre spay blood work -$114 - and the meds plus that ran shy of $300!

But I have no choice. She's acting fine! Running all over the place but I will ask what tests they ran at the lab (she didnt see the giardia at first so sent it out- but not sure what else they found, if anything. She saw a lot of I think bacteria (or something) when she looked at it but didn't see the giardia (but as we all know I'm amazed they even found it!)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yes, they can get reinfected while on the antibiotics; you have to be scrupulous about disinfecting everything the poop may have touched, both indoors and out. I would keep her away from areas where other dogs may have defecated as well. This is critical. Some people here have actually followed their dogs around to catch the poop on paper plates to avoid their yards becoming contaminated, lol.  

Panacur is indeed better for giardia than metronidazole (Flagyl) in most cases; it also has fewer side effects and doesn't obliterate the good gut bacteria. But you do need a good probiotic; goat's milk does not contain a sufficient number or variety of the live cultures she needs. Ordering Proviable DC online would be a good option. You also want to make sure that you give the probiotics at least two hours apart from antibiotics, and longer is better. She will need the probiotics for several weeks. 

That bunch of people online who recommended peanut butter for a dog with diarrhea need a basic course in nutrition, lol. There is almost no food in the world that is higher in fat than peanut butter, and high fat foods contribute to diarrhea. Your best bet if you have to mix meds into something palatable is to use chicken or meat baby food. 

[Dr Karen Hoving]

Thanks!

I'm mixing it with pumpkin- is that ok? I quit the peanut butter (only did that 1 day). And is fortiflora a good probiotic? I'm just worried if I order online it will take a week to get it.

Thanks for the advice about timing. I was giving it too soon. I'll spread it out.

I have cleaned all the poop up, poured water/clorox combo on every pille (ex-pile). I am doing that every time she poops. 

Thanks to everyone for kindness and advice. I'm writing it all down for when I go to vet tomorrow. Of course this would happen when 2 holidays were back to back!

Thanks again,

Karen

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Fortiflora is not a very good probiotic. It's made by Purina (in itself a problem) and it contains only one strain of bacteria plus some very poor quality ingredients and flavoring agents. It shouldn't take a week to get the Proviable, but even if it does, it's worth it, and she's going to need to be on it for several weeks anyway. 

[Sarah N]

We were able to get Proviable DC through Amazon Prime. Didn't really make a difference for our Benny, but definitely doesn't hurt.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

We used the VSL#3 with our newest doodle, Charlie.  He came to us with loose stools and Giardia so went on Panacur for a few days.  The diarrhea came back with a vengeance, even though we were using a good probiotic - Proviable.  We put him on a limited ingredient food and VSL#3 for at least a month.  He is fine now on the same dog food the others are on.

[Dr Karen Hoving]

I found some VSL 3 on amazon. Is this the right product? https://www.amazon.com/Potency-Probiotic-Capsules-Ulcerative-Coliti...

What is better- proviable dc or VSL 3? She's not pooping more often-still 2-3 times a day, but its mushy. She's acting fine, running like a crazy puppy! She's had 4 days of pancur and 7 (tomorrow) of Flagyl. I'm going to the vet tomorrow-I am running out of money (I do have spay $ hidden in a sock LOL) but my gut is NOT to redo the flagyl (am I being neurotic? I've had a lot of ppl write that its strong- Panacur is better for Giardia.But I don't know if she's gotten it again, mid treatment, (even though I'm cleaning up in the backyard- we didn't let her out front until 3 days on Flagyl as per vet instruction). But I guess they will need to take a sample- but most reports say not to redo the sample until a few weeks after.

The vet didn't see giardia when she looked under microscope-they sent it to lab and I guess they cultured it (vet didn't think it was giardia) so my feeling is they tested for other stuff not just giardia bc it was negative. But it came up postive. And as we all know if they redo the test it may come up negative if they don't get it mid way through that giardia cycle. 

Could it be the pumpkin? Usually pumpkin is the wonder food- helps with poops and constipation. But I had to put the pancur in something she would eat. Vet said NO CANNED FOOD if she'd never had it (She's on kibble). I tried the first day putting it on kibble w/water-she refused to eat it. She hates the taste-the only thing she'll eat it in is pumpkin-but it's a large amount of the crystal things so I need a fair amount of pumpkin. (not 1/2 the can- but more than I usually would give to keep a dog regular).

Well thanks everyone...I'll go tomorrow and let you all know. Maybe my financial draining will help all of us! 

Let me know which probiotic Is best-and I won't let her sell me the fortaflora!

Thanks and hugs,

Karen and Bella

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The pumpkin is not causing the problem. That's one thing you can stop wondering about.

VSL#3 is a much more powerful and effective probiotic than anything else out there, but don;t buy it online. It must be kept refrigerated, and the only supplier I would trust to pack and ship it properly is the manufacturer; but you can buy it at many human drugstores for less $. I get it at CVS. Call around in your area, and ask if they have the capsules, not the sachets. 

If vet costs are a concern, it would be worth your while to look into pet insurance. We have many, many discussions here about this, including information on specific companies. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

You know, the more I think about this, the more I feel there may be something going on other than giardia. Typically, the diarrhea clears up while the dog is still on metronidzaole, it's after the meds are discontinued that the diarrhea returns and becomes difficult to treat. I'm wondering if something your pup is eating is causing the problem. Hopefully you've stopped giving goat's milk; milk products of any kind can be a problem for a lot of dogs. What kind of food does she get? (Specific brand and formula) What kind of treats or chews? Is there any possibility she's getting into anything outdoors?

The other thing in the back of my mind is that if she happens to have come from the Pacific Northwest, there is at least one breeder there whose dogs have had an antibiotic resistant strain of giardia that is extremely difficult to treat with the usual meds. But let's not go there yet. 

[Dr Karen Hoving]

Hi!

OK called vet yet again.

According to the lab the only thing they found was giardia. The vet initially looked at it and saw "a lot of bacteria" but no giardia. They started her on Flagyl.So they sent it out to the big lab. They found giardia. Then they started her on Pancur (5 days). I had her on rice/pumpkin/boiled chicken for a week at that point- she was starving so I started her on kibble again. 

Her kibble is PRECISE WHOLISTIC COMPLETE. http://precisepet.com/dog-formulas/precise-holistic-complete/dry/pu...   (am I allowed to put links in?)  I got it at chuck and dons. They said after the food is cooked, they add probiotics after (don't ask I don't know). She said it was a great food for dogs (cost a flipping fortune). She doesn't get many treats- the only one I give her occasionally is grain free Blue Dog Bakery.

So, the vet tech never called back (I needed one more packet of the pancur bc I had sprinkled it on food with water and she wouldn't eat it. So one packet down.) so I went by the vet. Apparently, no one spoke to her. So I waited and she wants her on a drug that sounds like the equivalent of puppy imodium - you give 2 pills every 4 hours no more than 4 days to get rid of loose poop. I am to stop IMMEDIATELY when she has a formed stool (Endosorb 2 pills every 4 hours). 

So, I gave her 2 puppy imodium, with her kibble and some pumpkin (otherwise if I crush it she won't eat it). I wonder if bc I'm putting the pancur in the pumpkin its causing problems? I'm not using a huge amount- but she won't eat it in anything else.

Not using goats milk.

I asked the vets tech about getting the probiotic that everyone suggested above (from amazon) and the message I got was "IF YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE THE DO PROBIOTICS YOU CANNOT TREAT THE GIARDIA" WTF? I know that you give it 2 hours AFTER the antibiotic, but they were firm that I was NOT to give her anything (not even the shitty fortiflora that they sell) 

So...you may be right. It may be something else. She is acting fine. Her poop isn't like soup (it was watery before- but when we started the flagyl it firmed up the next day, then when we started the powder drug she got icky again- so it could be the drug, or the pumpkin.

If you have suggestions if you think it's too much pumpkin (btw I'm not giving her 1/2 a can or anything- just a bit more than I would give for just typical runs so that she doesn't taste the pancur).

Sorry I'm going on and on...my gut (no pun intended) is at some point -sooner as opposed to later- she need a probiotic to help her gut. Oh you asked about the breeder. I got her in Aurora, CO -small breeder ADORADOODLES. Aurora Co is a suburb of Denver. She isn't a big breeder. I think this was her first litter of sheepadoodles. She does mostly goldens I think .When I went to her house to pick Bella up I didnt see mom or dad dog. Just one of bella's sisters that she was keeping (she was gorgeous- more white and black- bella is mostly black with white on the chest and paw). I think she owns one parent and someone else owns the other.BUT I don't know that of my own knowledge. Her house was in the foo foo suburbs so it was a puppy mill. 

OK, I've bored you long enough. I feel bad to bug you guys- feel free to ignore this. I'm just concerned if I just firm up the stool that isn't killing the giardia. I guess the vet is assuming 1 week of Flagyl and 5 days of pancur killed it. I'm supposed to bring in a stool sample in a month.

If I take her off the "imodium" (I know that's not it- but I'm beyond twisted, and a shrink so I 'm strange!) and it starts again I'm getting a second opinion. I'll have all tests sent to another vet. 

Oh- she is supposed to be spayed next week- is it safe to spay her if she still may have giardia? Different vets give different opinions. Mine doesn't care. BUT she also doesn't believe in probiotics. And isn't into any natural stuff so...she's a nice woman, but I'm wondering if when she did vet school they didn't discuss vitamins, probiotics, raw diets(not on that - but I have researched it a lot for my cats bc one has IBD). But they sell ONLY purina products (ICK). So I don't think she gets why I buy good quality, organic when I can, pet foot...

Thanks for everything, 

Karen and Bella...who will no doubt be constipated in 3 hours LOL