Too many options for training, opinions please

[Carrie B and Maggie Goldendoodle]

Hello everyone!

 

 I am hoping you won't mind my puppy question but I am looking for opinoins from experienced trained dog owners. I have an 11 week old goldendoodle who I want to be a well trained member of our family. My ultimate goal would be a therapy dog mostly for the Read to Me program.

 

 My question is, what style training do you recommend? We have PetSmart and PetCo classes here as well as a trainer who used to work for Miami Aquarium who does private lessons as well as group lessons. How do I know what to look for? Is PetCo / PetSmart a true training program or just a money making tool for a pet store?

 

Thanks for the imput,

Carrie and Maggie B

[Carrie B and Maggie Goldendoodle]

Sorry for spelling error holding a sleeping baby typing with one hand ;)

[Adina P]

Hi Carol!

I would recommend you pose this question in the main forum. The reason being is this particular group is intended for advanced obedience rather than beginner's stuff. You'll also get a wider variety of responses as this group is nowhere as large as the number of people who visit the main forum.

[Adina P]

Sorry Carol.  Nevermind what I said...I reread your post and see why you wanted to post here.  Didn't mean to rudely send you somewhere else.  I still think you might get more answers in the main forum but here is okay too :)

[Carol Brand]

As the Poodle lady lurker, I'll give you my two cents worth. I think you should find a trainer who has put AKC Obedience titles on her dog. Preferably she would have put titles on more than one dog and she would have attained higher level titles such as a UD (a CGC is NOT a title). As always the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. If a trainer is good, she will have been personally successful in a competition setting.

The skills necessary for a good competition dog are the skill necessary for a good companion. We want:

1. Dogs who are focused on us.
2. Dogs who immediately comply with the directions they are given. Come. Down. Stay. Retrieve etc
3. Dogs who can focus and function in new places surrounded by new people and new dogs.

I personally never recommend training at places like Petco or Petsmart. When I'm in those stores, I am more often than not horrified by their trainers and their lack of experience and expertise. I am also seriously underwhelmed by what I see coming out of various "certified" pet trainers who hang out a shingle. There has been an explosion of APDT type trainers in our area. They go around espousing certain training methods like they are some new religion. I'm open to all methods, but what I'm seeing is that dog owners are getting sucked into a philosophy and not necessarily getting the end results they want ( a solid and reliably trained dog).

So contact your local all-breed kennel clubs to see if they can recommend a training facility with experienced competition trainers.

[Adina P]

I couldn't agree more!

If the highest level a professional trainer has ever achieved is "CGC" than by golly I could teach her classes ;-)

I'd want someone who has achieved far more than I can and someone who has titled their dog(s) in competition obedience is ideal. To get a CD, CDX, or UD, etc... a trainer has proven, in an objective way, that he/she is capable of working a dog to a very high level. A trainer who has at least an open obedience title (CDX right?) on his/her dog(s) shows he/she has been able to train a dog the responsibility of leaving, doing a task, and returning to the owner with one command. That's not easy and shows a lot of skill and knowledge on the part of the trainer.

I also say "hear hear" to Carol's statement about too many dog owners giving allegiance to philosophy and missing end results. Philosophy is philosophy and theory is theory. But the question that is of utmost importance is: does this training WORK? Will you have a solidly reliable dog in the end? Or is it merely "fun and games"? Some training facilities put owners through umpteenth levels of classes (each 6-8 weeks long) before they even get to the so called "CGC training class". In my opinion this is ridiculous. If it takes puppy K --> beginners --> intermediate 1 --> intermediate 2 -- > advanced --> CGC to get a CGC, then something is seriously missing in such a program. Because I can name several trainers who can, for far less money, train an owner through a novice obedience program (higher level than CGC and includes off lead work) in 10 weeks. One class.

The proof of a good training program is that a dog can reliably work off lead. Even if...the average pet owner (me included) isn't quite yet skilled enough to achieve full off lead control, following a program with a high success rate for achieving that level of control will yield FAR better results than one whose end goal is simply a CGC.

[Adina P]

Ok....here's my answer. For an 11 week old puppy I honestly don't think it matters. I've changed my mind on this over the years (not too many years though as the only dog I've trained all on my own is only 4 years old and my new pup is 21-22 weeks old). In my opinion, a young pup has a few training needs:

-- House training
-- Basic manners around the house training
-- Learning that jumping on people is not rewarding
-- Learning to have a soft mouth and avoid putting teeth on humans
-- Tolerating confinement (crate, tether, etc)
-- Tolerating handling and grooming (learning to be okay with brushing, combing, clippers, nail trimming, etc)
and...Socialization with lots of different people, kids, animals, places, sounds, situations--exposure to the world in a way that is positive, not scary, and helps the dog feel confident in the world around him so he's not one day freaked by a man in a hat because he's never seen a man in a hat.

Beyond that I think most of the rest of training is fine to wait until his little puppy brain matures a bit. The reason I think this is that time and time again what I've noticed is that most people are able to teach their puppies commands quite easily. You'll see a lot of doodle owners brag about how smart their puppy is and also be able to show off simple tricks at an early age. It's very easy to teach a dog to understand that 'sit' means "put your butt on the floor" and things like "high five", etc. Teaching words to a dog is easy peasy.

But getting those commands/cues to stick like glue and helping that dog learn that "sit" always means sit...whether there are exciting guests entering the house, dogs playing in the vicinity, or squirrels running around...THAT is the incredibly difficult and time consuming work that doesn't happen in puppyhood. So what I've observed (not a scientific study, just observation) is that most people can teach all these great things to their pup very quickly. Then their dog hits the teenage period (6 months for many) and suddenly all this great teaching has gone out the window. They start to test the waters, they take commands as 'optional' and can be quite ornery (albeit CUTE while ornery). So all that time you thought your dog was 'trained'--they weren't truly trained. They were far from 'done'.

Doesn't mean it's a complete waste of time...but for ME I didn't want to spend an enormous amount of time 'training' something that was going to need to be retrained in a few months. So I've waited to work with my new puppy until next week (she'll be 5 months) and we'll be starting very strict training that will go through that more difficult ornery puppy time but because it will be strict, there won't be 'optional' commands given and by the time she's done she'll have passed that naughty puppy time and I think the work invested will be more fruitful.

The other thing I have observed is that regardless of whether you start with a wee puppy or an older dog is that you MUST take your training out of the home. Include the home, but if you only practice commands and hold training time in the house...that's pretty much the only place your dog will actually be obedient. So gradually, as your dog understands words, work him everywhere! Start with low distraction places and work up to more difficult environments.

Okay back to your question.

Some PetCo's and PetSmarts have decent trainers and others don't. I would investigate and ask around. I prefer trainers who have obedience titles on their dogs. It shows me they are highly skilled and can solve training problems that are more difficult from experience rather than just based on theory. So I would ask the trainers about their accomplishments and if they've done competition obedience and titled any dogs. Titles in novice obedience, open obedience, and/or in utility. Those are in order of difficulty, I believe.

I bet the Aquarium guy does clicker training or all positive training. But PetSmart/PetCo does all positive too, I believe. So if you're going to go the route of "all positive" (meaning few to no reprimands or physical corrections) then I would pick the Aquarium guy as he probably has a better grasp of clicker training than the PetSmart/Co folks (though I could be wrong).

In our Links section (hover your mouse over the "Extra!" tab at the top of the page to find the link) at the bottom you'll see links to two dog training organizations where you can search for trainers by zip code. Talk to a few, ask them about their philosophies. Talk to them about your goals and find someone who has a lot of experience, doesn't have a prejudice against doodles, and makes you confident in their method. Because in the end if you BELIEVE in a method you're more likely to follow through thoroughly.

[Lynne B]

I would go for the aquarium trainer for sure. The reason is simple, you can only train aquatic mammals, using positive reinforcement (i.e. clicker training) You can't bully a whale or put a choke chain on it, or push it into a sit stay; every behavior they learn is the result of the trainer marking the behavior with a sound (whistle or clicker) and then giving a food reinforcement.

Some Petco /Petsmart trainers use good techniques, but we have one in our area who is really useless and the classes probably end up doing more harm than good- an example; I was watching her work with puppies on 'sit' she would say "sit sit sit sit sit"- then the pup would sit. She would then tell the owner to do the same, the owner would say a single 'sit' and the puppy wouldn't budge- the trainer would take over and say "sit sit sit sit sit" the pup sat and the trainer said "I don't know why he won't sit for you" . The trainer didn't even realize that the puppy was doing exactly what he had been taught, responding to the word sit being said 5 times in a row, but ignoring the word when only spoken once.

[Carol Brand]

Ugh. Petsmart trainers are just too often like this. The stories I could tell.....

Re the aquarium trainer......Just because someone can train a dolphin does not mean that they can train a dog. Think of it this way.... I can train dogs. Does that mean I can train horses?

Dogs exist in a very different world than aquatic mammals. They are domesticated, companion animals that have been selectively bred to live with and work for humans. Killer whales are wild animals that are living in captivity. Training techniques that work for killer whales may not be as effective on a dog. Behavioral expectation for each animal are also extremely different.

I do competitive Obedience. I have trained in the same facility with some very accomplished competitors: multiple OTCH, multiple UDXs (UDX6 on a Beagle), NOI Champion etc These folks all use a variety of techniques some positive and some compulsion. They get results that most of the rest of us would LOVE to have in our companion dogs.

I would find a trainer who has this level of dog training experience. Trainers at this level are going to do what works and not be tied to a specific philosophy or methodology.

[Adina P]

To Carrie B: Clicker training is based on a positive training philosophy that is based on the area of science known as behaviorism. This philosophy refers to anything a dog does as a 'behavior' and doesn't attach meaning to it because humans can't know for sure the reason a dog does something...except for the assumed reason that whatever a dog does it does because it gets some kind of reward from it. So you reward the behaviors you want (sometimes teaching them first) and remove rewards from the behaviors you don't want and voila...training. Some people have good success with this, but it's not the only way and there are countless people who have achieved a high level of obedience with other philosophies and other methods. I agree with Carol that a dolphin and whale are very different. While animals in general do like to be rewarded, I don't think a companion animal always responds best to positive-only training. There are far too many variables in real life. In reality all effective training is positive to a large degree--even compulsion training includes positive reward. Constant correction, reprimands, or punishment doesn't produce a reliable dog that is capable and confident to work off lead. But lack of all corrections is not effective for all dogs either. I'm not saying a purely positive (with only removal of reward 'negatives') type of training philosophy can't work. I know some who have done great work with this idea. But I know far more whose impeccably trained dogs became impeccably trained because of balanced training that uses both reward and correction.

If a dog is shown what is expected and given adequate practice, corrections do not hurt the morale of the dog if they are fair. The dog will then realize he has a choice and make a confident choice based on consistent results he expects. Dogs do quite well in black and white.

[Lynne B]

Sure dogs are different than marine mammals, I never meant to infer they were the same, but the fundamentals of shaping behavior and reinforcing it is exactly the same. You can go on to correction based training or whatever you want- but having a good understanding of how to observe any animal until it evokes a desirable behavior, then shaping it (refining it) and rewarding it does not vary between species and is invaluable in the long run. I have a friend who has been a dog trainer for decades and now trains giraffes at the zoo to comply with vet exams using reward based training.

[Carrie B and Maggie Goldendoodle]

Just called The Developing Canine ~ (Columbus Georgia) Carolyn (Miami Seaquarium lady) will be coming out Wednesday night for an hour and a half private puppy lesson for our family and Maggie. We will work on what we learn from that lesson for 2 weeks and she will get back to us on where we are and what we need to work on just before Maggie turns 14 weeks to make sure she is on the right track.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Please let us know what you think after she comes out on Wednesday.