Advice on 6mo old Goldendoodle Diet Change

[Harpreet Singh]

Hi,

I am new to DK and have been reading through the forums. I have a 6 month old goldendoodle mini named Dexter. He has been doing quite well and growing appropriately. We purchased him from a breeder and got him at 9 weeks. He was being fed Instinct brand food at that time and doing reasonably well with that. He had well formed stools and was growing as we expected. He had a giardia infection which we treated and eliminated around 10 weeks when we took him to the vet for the first time. On the advice of our veterinarian we decided to transition him to “Merrick Backcountry Raw Infused.” After reading some of the posts, that may have been a bad idea. He did okay for about a month and then started to have diarrhea. He tested positive for giardia again so we treated and eliminated that. He continued to have loose stools despite negative tests and off antibiotics so on the advice of the vet we transitioned him to Royal Canin GI Low Fat wet canned food. We supplemented that with pumpkin and probiotic. He did okay with that but over the last couple weeks each time we try to gradually transition him with a combination of the Royal Canin GI and Merrick Backcountry he seems to regress and develops some cyclic episodes of normal stool followed by diarrhea again. We have now placed him back on the Royal Canin GI full time however I would like to get him onto a more sustainable dry food regimen that does not irritate the poor guys stomach. The vet has recommended we get a GI panel as she feels the dog has some GI problem though she does not have any concrete evidence of this except that everytime we start him on dry food with the canned Royal Canin he develops some loose stools. This was refuted by a different vet who we saw also.

He is currently 6 months old and 17 lbs which we are told is appropriate given his parent's weight (23lb and 26lb). We are confused on what we should do and would love any advice you may have! What food would you start him on at this point? We just started the Royal Canin GI on him full time again to try to get him more regular – when and how should we transition him to the new regimen?

Thank you in advance – I appreciate your help. I look forward to seeing the recommendations you have to get little Dexter better!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Okay, so nowhere in this whole process of treating this poor puppy's guts with antibiotics do I see any mention of probiotics. Was he ever given any? If so, what kind and for how long?
Metronidazole is not the treatment of choice for giardia, and when give to puppies, especially repeatedly, without probiotics given for an extended length of time, it will always cause chronic diarrhea. Always. There are dogs here who actually did develop GI problems because of the vets giving them repeated courses of metronidzaole without probiotics.
For giardia, the treatment of choice is Panacur. It is much more effective than metronidazole and doesn't have the same side effects. 

Your pup continued to have loose stool after the meds were discontinued and the fecal was negative because the Flagyl (metronidazole) destroyed all the good gut bacteria which is necessary for proper stool formation, and he very well may now have a bacterial imbalance in his gut...too much bad bacteria, not enough good. 
Yes, it was a mistake to change him from Instinct to Merrick, and I cannot for the life of me understand how or why any vet would suggest that. 
But, right now, he needs a good probiotic. There is a human probiotic called VSL#3 which has been studied extensively in dogs and which has been shown to be very very effective. Your vets will probably not have heard of it; if that's the case, tell them to look up the studies done by Dr. Jergens at Iowa State vet school. You can give them this reference: https://vetmed.iastate.edu/users/ajergens
VSL#3 is available at human pharmacies w/o prescription. Call around to see who has it in your area. It is always kept in the refrigerator behind the pharmacy counter; it must always be kept refrigerated. I buy it at CVS. It's not cheap, but one bottle of 60 capsules will last you 2 months. 
Give your pup one capsule per day. After a week, I would start to transition him to a limited ingredient food. My choice would be Wellness Simple Salmon. This line is currently being switched over to Wellness Complete Health Limited Ingredient, which I know is comfusing but it is the same product. here are links so you can see the bags. 
Simple
Complete Health Ltd Ingredient

Either of these is fine.
I would tell the vet that you are declining the GI panel for now, but that you would like him/her to give your pup a B12 (cobalamin) shot. This is completely harmless, as B12 is water soluble and it's impossible to get too much. The shot will cost you about $20 as opposed to about $200 for the GI panel, which is basically only going to tell you if your pup's cobalamin and folate levels are normal. A shot of B12 will help with his digestion. You can always run the expensive tests later if this doesn't help. 
Do not give him any kind of treat except plain boiled white meat chicken, or Pure Bites dehydrated chicken.
I hope this helps.

[Harpreet Singh]

Thank you for your quick response and the info. He has been on probiotics continuously throughout this entire process. He was also treated with pancur in conjunction with the metronidazole approximately 6 weeks ago. He is currently on priobiotic and the Royal Canin. I am going to purchase the VSL #3 tomorrow as well as the Wellness Simple Salmon. 

Since he is currently on Royal Canin wet low fat only, how would you suggest transitioning him? He gets 1 cup of food per day. Would you recommend doing 1/4 cup of the wellness salmon and 3/4 of the royal canin for a couple days and then 1/2 and 1/2 for a couple days and then 3/4 and 1/4 for a couple days and then transition him completly? Also, I will continue the probiotic for him for the next couple months but do you recommend the Wellness Simple Salmon for him long term or is this a temporary fix?

Also - great idea on the B12 shot. I will definitely get that for him as it has no downside and if its too much he will urinate it out. 

I truly appreciate your help and advice. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The Panacur is fine but if he was also getting metronidazole, that's where the problem lies. 
Also, most probiotics need to be given at least two hours apart from any antibiotics, and longer is preferable in order for them to be effective. 
One cup of wet food of any kind is not equal to one cup of kibble in terms of calories, so transitioning is not as simple as substituting an equal amount of dry food for wet. If this is the food he's on now, it has 345 calories per can, and the cans are 13.6 oz, so one cup has only about 200 calories. https://www.royalcanin.com/us/dogs/products/vet-products/canine-gas...

The Simple kibble has 446 calories per cup. 
Honestly, one cup of the canned food at 200 calories doesn't sound like anywhere near enough calories for a growing puppy. What does he weigh? 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The Simple food is an ALS formula intended for long term use. There really wouldn;t be any reason to change it if he does well on it, but let's take things one step at a time. 
Once i know what he weighs, I can help with the amounts for the transition. Maybe he's on a different canned food than the one I linked? 200 calories per day wouldn't be enough for any puppy. 

[Harpreet Singh]

Great. I will get that and start transitioning.

He weights 16lbs currently. The can has 345 Kcal. We can increase from 1 can/day if you think appropriate before we transition. We are just going off of what appears to be a bunch of misinformation we have been receiving.  Would it be best to increase his food with the Royal Canin to 1.25/1.5 cans a day and then transition him. What ratios would you recommend and at what interval?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Above you said that he gets one cup of food per day, not one can. That is a difference. It still doesn't sound like enough, though. The feeding guidelines show that an 11 lb adult dog should be getting 1 can per day, and a 22 lb dog should be getting 1.5 cans per day, so even if Dexter were full grown, at 16 or 17 lbs he should be getting about 1 and one quarter can per day, and puppies need more calories per lb of body weight than adult dogs. I'd move him up to 1.5 cans per day for now, divided into two meals. 
I'd like to hold off talking about transition amounts until you've had him on the VSL#3 and we see how he's doing. In the meantime, I'll have to do some calculations to figure out amounts of each food for the transition. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This would be a good discussion for you to read through.
https://doodlekisses.com/group/thefoodgroup/forum/topics/an-update-...

[Lori, Winnie, Bob and Indie]

Hi!

I just wanted to welcome you- you have come to the right place!! Karen, and the rest of us that have learned from her, will point you in the right direction. 

I'm going to pipe in about the VSL-3..... it did wonders for our Bob! He had problems with diarrhea and soft stools even after infection was cleared- it firmed them up! We don't even have him on a limited ingredient food anymore- just that. 

But, a little about VSL-3. Karen, I've been meaning to tell you about this, but time has escaped me! It seems as though there was a ruckus of some nature, and the Scientist that formulated VSL-3 left the company and developed his own company. It's called Visbiome and it is the exact same product, but a little cheaper. (Although lately on the website the cost is the same as VSL-3. ) What I like about it (in addition to being a little cheaper) is that the shipping temp is much more tightly monitored. This is a product that needs to be refrigerated, and it is shipped with a device that tells you if the temp has been compromised or not. With summer coming up, that's a great thing! 

You get it on the Visbiome website, or I have also gotten it here... https://www.amazon.com/Visbiome-Probiotic-bacteria-Temperature-Moni...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I do remember reading something about disputes regarding ownership, etc with the people who make the product. 
If the Visbiome is the same exact thing, that's great; the problem comes in when someone's vet is dubious about giving a human probiotic to a dog. I was able to show Jack's vets the research, after which they were comfortable with my giving it, but it will be harder for people to produce documentation on the new company's product, even though it's the same. 

So if pricing is the same, I'd be more comfortable staying with the VSL#3, as long as you are buying it from a reputable pharmacy. The product is used by human patients with serious GI disease, so I have to trust that the major pharmacies and their distributors are being careful with refrigeration. But it's good to have this info! 

[Lori, Winnie, Bob and Indie]

Good points! But, the other thing that I forgot to mention is that on the Visbiome website they have a whole section on "Veterinary Uses" which has research to support it. So, I would hope that Vets would be open to the idea. The Vet product that they sell is more expensive, but in looking at the ingredients, it's the same as the human product. So, I chose to buy the human product. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Good that the website has the research info.