Best Large Breed Puppy Food?

[Kate]

I was going to feed Louie Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold but after looking on http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/ I see it is not rated the best. My breeder feels it's best to feed a large breed puppy version of food for the first year if it's available in the brand I want to feed. I agree with this philosophy. It seems like Orijen Large Breed Puppy may be the best bet. Thoughts? Do you/did you feed large breed puppy versions and what did you go with vs. what would you recommend?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The Dog Food Analysis site has not been active for a few years, and their reviews are out-of-date. However, even when they were active, they typically gave lower ratings to foods containing grains. I would disregard their reviews at this point. Their last review of Fromm Gold Nutritionals Large Breed puppy food is four years old.

Fromm is an excellent company and we highly recommend all of their products.

It's impossible to compare the Fromm food with the Orijen large breed puppy food, because one contains grains and the other doesn't. They are both good foods. You should not change your puppy's food for at least a few weeks after you get him, anyway. When trying to decide what to switch to after the initial adjustment period, you will have to look at how he is doing with the current (breeder's) food, and what type of eater he is. What is the breeder feeding?

Unless you are fairly certain that your puppy is going to be more than 70 lbs at maturity, it is not necessary to feed a large breed formula, IMO. Even if you knew he was going to be larger than that, many people start their pups on ALS formulas and don't ever feed puppy food.   

There really is no one "best" food for every puppy or every dog.

 

[Kate]

Hi Karen,

Thanks so much for your reply! The DFA review of Fromm Large Breed Puppy is 4 years old, but all the ingredients are still the same, etc. so wouldn't that review still be accurate? I see up to date posts and posts in 2010 and 2011 on that site, so it looks to me like it is still active. I totally LOVE Fromm as a company, as it is a local company for me as I am in WI and it is family owned, I love everything about it! The people who work there are fantastic, I seriously cannot say enough good things about that company--I fed my beloved German Shepherd Haus Fromm for a long time. However I am just a little worried b/c of what I just read and I really want to feed Louie the best food I can find.

Louie's breeder is feeding Life's Abundance. DFA site does not recommend this brand and I don't like the looks of the ingredients so I do not want to continue Louie on this food any longer than I have to.

I want to feed Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold, I just want to be sure that is the best for Louie. My breeder thinks Louie will be 85 pounds and could be more. He is the biggest of the litter and his dad is very solid.

I am just trying to make the best decision I can.

Here is DFA review of Life's Abundance:

Pros: First ingredient is a named meat product. Cons: Insufficient meat content, use of controversial fillers.

The first ingredient in the food is a named meat product in meal form. There is a further meat product, fish meal, 10th on the ingredient list, but this is too far down to make up a substantive portion of the food. We note that while the manufacturers states that they do not add any chemical preservatives to the food, they do not specifically state the use of Ethoxyquin-free fish sources (ethoxyquin is a chemical preservative commonly added to fish destined for meal, and is believed to be carcinogenic). With only one real meat source, we cannot have confidence that there is an adequate amount of meat in this food. Brown rice is a good quality grain, but potato product is filler. We are also concerned to see chicken fat as the fourth ingredient in the food. Research at Purdue University has shown a fat in the top four ingredients of dry dog food to be a factor that increases the risk of bloat in large breed dogs. Smaller breeds are untested. Beet pulp is further filler and a controversial ingredient – it is a by-product, being dried residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. It is a controversial ingredient in dog food, claimed by some manufacturers to be a good source of fibre, and derided by others as an ingredient added to slow down the transition of rancid animal fats and causing stress to kidney and liver in the process. We note that beet pulp is an ingredient that commonly causes problems for dogs, including allergies and ear infections, and prefer not to see it used in dog food. There are less controversial products around if additional fibre is required. We appreciate the inclusion of some amount of vegetable matter in the food, and a good range of probiotics. We would prefer to see the use of whole eggs rather than egg product in this food.   Here is DFA review of Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold:

Pros: First three ingredients are named meat products Cons: Minimum acceptable meat content

The first three ingredients in this food are named meat products. The first and third of these are inclusive of water content (around 80%). Once this is removed as it must be to create a dehydrated product, the ingredients will weigh about 20% of their wet weight. As ingredients are listed in weight order, it is thus unlikely that these are truely the first and third ingredients in the food, but would be more accurately placed further down the ingredient list. The second ingredient, chicken meal, is most likely the true first ingredient in the food. There is a further meat meal ingredient 7th on the ingredient list, which may add to the overall meat content to a minorly significant extent given its likely true position 5th on the ingredient list. We note that this is a fish ingredient, but do not find any statement on the manufacturers website guaranteeing the use of ethoxyquin-free ingredients (ethoxyquin is a chemical preservative commonly added to fish ingredients and which is banned or heavily regulated in human food production, due to the belief that it is carcinogenic). The fourth - sixth ingredients are grains. Rice, barley and oats are all decent quality grains and good carbohydrate sources, however this starts to look a slightly grain-heavy food. The food does contain a range of fruits/vegetables and probiotics. We appreciate the inclusion of whole eggs.

 

Here is DFA review of Orijen Large Breed Puppy:

Pros: High named meat product content, grainless, uses high quality ingredients throughout. Cons: High protein may not be suitable for puppies.

The first three ingredients of this food are all named meat products, two of which are in meal form. There are further meat ingredients fifth, ninth and tenth on the ingredient list. We can thus have a high level of confidence in the meat content of this food, which the manufacturer states to be 70% of the total. This is an entirely grainless dog food. The major carbohydrate source is potatoes, which are also a good source of B vitamins and other minerals. There is a good range of fruits/vegetables in the food, whole eggs and a good range of probiotics. This food is outstanding in that it contains no grains whatsoever. Grains are not a natural part of a canine diet and it is pleasing to see dog foods on the market that exclude grains completely from the diet. This is a far more natural food concept and combined with a complete lack of any low quality or controversial ingredients is the reason this food is placed in a class above the more conventional form dry dog foods. The only caution we would make on this food is that the high protein content makes it suitable for adult dogs only, particularly in the case of large breeds. The manufacturer has provided the following statement in regards to the use of Ethoxyquin (a chemical preservative often found in fish ingredients): "All ingredients are purchased ethoxyquin free and we maintain written quality protocols and supplier agreements to this effect. All ORIJEN fish meals are preserved exclusively with NATUR-OX (a blend of rosemary and mixed tocopherals), and our fresh fish are truly FRESH -arriving without any preservatives what-so-ever."

[Kate]

P.S. Looking further at Orijen Large Breed Puppy formula, it appears to have too much protein to feed puppies who are going to be as large as Louie is. So, I guess that takes care of that! :-) However I see that Fromm Four Star is ethoxyquin free, I do not see the same statement for their Gold recipes, and that worries me a bit.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm very familiar with the DFA site and have read those reviews. We also have lots of information about all of those foods here in TFG, including all of th other reasons we don't recommend Life's Abundance, mostly having to do with the fact that it is sold through a MLM scheme, (pyramid scheme) and you are paying most of the price of the food for multi-tiered sales commissions. You can do a search in the FG discussions for more info.

It is not true that Orijen has too much protein for puppies, large or small. That information is outdated.

And again, keep in mind that the DFA reviews are slanted towards grain-free foods. I personally like grain-free diets, but they are not for every dog.

A lot of FG members feed Fromm and are extremely happy with it.

  

[Kate]

Thanks Karen. I'm going to keep researching and I emailed Fromm to be clear on whether all their varieties are ethoxyquin free or just the Four Star. It's all so confusing! I already bought a bag of Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold b/c that is what I want to feed Louie (as long as he likes it). As long as Fromm says this version is ethoxyquin free, I think that is what I will stick with, it's just hard to know what is best. :-) So if you were going to recommend Orijen Large Breed Puppy vs. Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold, which one would you choose? The main difference I see is grain vs. no grain. Thoughts?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Kate, we've already done the research on ethoxyquin (and most everything else) for you. One reason we recommend Fromm because they do not use fish meals preserved with ethoxyquin. Fromm has a statement on their website regarding the absence of ethoxyquin:

 http://www.frommfamily.com/frequently-asked-questions-dog-food.php#q15

 

This is one of the reasons I say the DFA site is out of date, they could not provide this information four years ago because it didn't exist.

 

I hope you will utilize the three years worth of research and information we have worked to provide here in the Food Group for you. You can search our discussions for any of the topics you have mentioned here: Puppy Foods, Large Breed Foods, various specific brands and formulas, how much food to buy, how to transition a new puppy, and so much more.

There are links to all of the manufacturer's websites in our Recommended Brands list, too.

[Kate]

Thanks Karen, and I totally appreciate the work that you and Allyson put into listing the recommended food brands. Where I am wanting to be certain, is after talking to Trisha from Fromm on the phone this week, she sent me some literature on all the Fromm varieties. The Four Star specifically states being ethoxyquin free, where the Gold does not. This may be just a marketing exlusion b/c of room on the literature, but I still wanted to email Fromm to be sure. That statement on their website that you posted a link to does make me feel better. I have been reading Food Group discussions all morning! My last question is grain vs. grain free? Is one healthier than the other, or does it mainly boil down to which the dog prefers, and if doggie has allergies or not, etc.? 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There are pages and pages of discussions here on this as well. To search the FG, go back to FG discussions, click view all, and then enter your search term.

Choosing between grain-free and foods that contain healthy grains is not a clear cut choice. There are many factors involved. Some dogs do better with one, some with another. Your puppy is currently eating a food that does contain grains, so after two weeks at home, you will be able to see if he does well with grains.

Young puppies don't have allergies, although they may have a genetic predisposition to them, and only ten percent of all dogs who do have allergies are allergic to any kind of food. So that's not a concern.

Dogs who are "chow-hounds" with big appetities may do better with foods that contain grains, as you generally feed more. A food like Orijen is more calorie dense, so a dog who is always looking for food might be happier with Fromm.

Some dogs digest grains better than others. These are all things that you can only tell with time. You are going to look at poop frequency and consistency, eating habits, etc. during your pup's first few weeks at home. 

I cannot emphasize too strongly the need to keep your puppy on whatever the breeder is feeding for at least two weeks after he comes home. Which does mean that you will have to purchase the LA- just don't get sucked into the "auto-delivery" scheme where they automatically deliver the food. Buy enough for 2-4 weeks only.  

[Kate]

I am totally bummed that I have to buy some LA, but I guess it's best that I do. Too many changes for Louie at once surely is not ideal. So you think it's best to wait a full two weeks at home before even starting to transition him to his new food?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It's an absolute must. All you have to do is scroll through all of the desperate frustrated discussions about puppies with mushy poop here to learn a lesson from that.

1. This is the hugest, most traumatic experience most dogs ever go through. To you it is a joyous occasion. To this little baby dog, it is the loss of his mother, his siblings, and the only home he has ever known. He won't understand. Everything will be strange and unfamiliar, and he will be stressed and not sure of what to do or what to expect. Let at least one thing, the food in his bowl, be familiar and comforting to him.

2. Stress can cause digestive upsets. If you start a new food right away, and he has digestive problems, you won't know if the food doesn't agree with him, or if it's just stress.

3. Many, many doodle puppies come home with giardia and/or coccidia. If you switch his food, you won't know if the diarrhea is caused by the new food or by a parasite.

4. If you switch foods and the dog does have a health issue, the breeder will blame it on the new food.

Switching food too soon and too often can start a vicious cycle of loose poop and a puppy with a sensitive digestive tract. Wait two weeks, and be sure his digestive system is functioning well, and you have a chance to learn what is normal for him in terms of consistency and frequency, before switching. Otherwise, you won't know whether any food agrees with your pup.

[Kate]

Yes, good points. I am going on LA site right now to order enough food for two weeks, plus two more weeks of transition to Fromm. It's amazing how much you forget after not having a puppy for 12 years! Thanks for pointing all that out, Karen. :-)

[Becka]

Hi Kate,

 

I started Sadie on Royal Canin Large Breed Puppy at the recommendation of my vet, but she never did very well on it (too much loose poop!) so after a bit of research I switched her to Blue Buffalo Wilderness Puppy Formula and she's done well with it. I know there's a lot to choose from and DK members have lots of recommendations, and it seems to sometimes take a while to settle on one that works, so my suggestion is to start out with a small bag of whatever you do get. I made the mistake of buying large bags at first and ended up donating a lot of food to a local rescue--good for them, but expensive for me. :)