Feeding RAW

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

Raw feeding our doodles is advocated by many people. There are some pros and cons in this...let's discuss it.

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

The ancestors of our dogs went out and hunted their food. They ate it raw, no vitamins or minerals, except what was in that prey. The only veggies they consumed was in the stomach of that animal they ate. The best parts were the innards: heart, liver,etc. They might get a rabbit one day, then a squirrel the next. They didn't eat the same thing every day. And they might go a day or two with nothing. If we take that reasoning into today, how do we recreate that? By feeding raw.

I researched and try to feed some raw, because of the benefits I see. I think I have a yuck reflex about going totally raw, however. I give marrow bones about once a week, and rare cook all my meats in my homemade doggie stew. I have given raw chicken once in awhile, but what a mess. I add calves liver or chicken gizzards into my food every now and then, but I can't go completely raw. The idea of salmonella or other contaminations scare me. I would like to discuss it.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This is another area where I would like a source for information based on facts; some of the websites advocating the BARF diet and raw feeding have an almost fanatical tone to them, and much of what I read there is anecdotal, just not scientifically logical or supported by any verifiable research. The "wolf analogies" upon which many of these theories are based have some huge flaws in them, and this is another area I would like to explore. In addition to the fact that there are very clear differences between the digestive systems of wolves and dogs, there is also the evolutionary factor; human bodies have changed physiologically in ways which are radically different from those of primitive man. The same must be true of domesticated dogs. And, as Lynne has pointed out before, there is a big difference between an animal killing and IMMEDIATELY eating a wild animal, and us buying meat and bone products from- where? when? stored how?-etc. What is safe for a dog who has a chronic illness or immune system defiency? Obviously, many people are having great success with raw feeding; a factual discussion would be helpful for many of us.

[Adina P]

I agree. Some of the web sites I've looked at, that are supposedly among the best with the best graphs and charts and data on this topic leave a lot to be desired. One website I looked at that supposedly went "deep", as far as scientific explanation goes, had a lot of flaws when it came to digestive/gastrointestinal physiology/metabolism explanations. So it was hard for me to take the rest of it very seriously. I would love to read some peer reviewed literature on this. I am a raw skeptic--not ashamed of it--but willing to learn from reputable sources.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

My Thoughts On Feeding Raw Meat Diets

by Dr.Richard Pitcairn

About 20 years ago, when I began to think for myself about the significance of nutrition in animal health, I realized that animals like dogs and cats in the natural state subsist entirely on raw food. This was enlightening to me.

Shortly after that, I read of Dr. Pottenger’s work with cats on raw meat, bones and milk, in which he showed he could duplicate most of the common illness we see in cats clinically by feeding them cooked food. As I cast about for more information, I found much opinion but no veterinarians that had actually tried feeding raw meat to animals. As far as I could tell, they were saying the same thing that was told to me in school — that raw meat would cause disease, parasites and death. This apparently was not based on any scientific studies.

I do not remember when I began to suggest the feeding of raw meat myself but at some point I did. The result was unexpected. I found animals becoming more healthy even without other treatment. Indeed, I have frequently had the report that people find their animals become healthy when they make this change and diseases for which they were hoping to have treatment (on a waiting list) have disappeared. Since that time, other veterinarians have told me similar things about the use of raw meat. I do not have numbers but I think the veterinarians recommending raw meat in the US are in the hundreds.

My experience, albeit clinical and not based on studies, is that my patients have improved health on a raw diet. Furthermore, I have not seen significant parasite problems. It may be that the meat sources in this country are especially "clean" but I doubt it. I have read that the typical inspector spends 12 seconds examining a carcass. My thought at present is that dogs and cats, being carnivores by nature, are meant to eat raw meat and do not have a problem doing so. I readily admit the limitation of not doing statistical studies or careful evaluations, in terms of parasites, of these animals. However, I do feel the actual experience of recommending this feeding practice for 20 years does offer some evidence of the usefulness and safety of this practice.

Should the diet by entirely raw meat? No, wild carnivore diets include the bones and organs as well as other parts of the body. Meat is too limited as a food source. We can make up for some of this deficiency by drawing on grains and vegetables and other supplements to make a diet sufficiently balanced.

What about feeding just meat and bones? This is close to what is natural but not entirely. The wild animal also eats organs, skin, connective tissue and other parts. When we buy meat at a market and feed it raw, this is close but by no means is the meat fresh. It has been "aged" in a cooler for many days before shipping and then, of course, shipped to a market where it is sold. In addition it is not organic. Yes, organic meat (or "free-range, pesticide free") is available but unless the cattle, sheep or other animals are fed organic grains and hay then of course any contaminants in those food sources will end up in the tissues of the animals.

So we have to consider the "toxic load" of a high meat diet as meat animals (as a food source) concentrate the contaminants (even deliberately added chemicals like hormones and anti-parasite drugs). The more your dog or cat eats meat the higher the toxins absorbed.

A further complication is feeding raw bones (or cooked, makes no difference) because of the high lead and other heavy metal content. The chief concern is with lead, mercury, & cadmium—all poisonous metals. Lead is the chief problem as decades of driving automobiles using leaded gasoline spewed the element lead into our environment all over the country. It is in the soil and water and taken up by plants and eventually deposited in the bones of animals (cattle, sheep, etc.) that eat plants as their food. It will take centuries for the lead to work itself out of the soil and end up in the sea. Therefore, feeding large quantities of bones will expose your pet to high lead levels. This is the reason for using a calcium supplement as described in our discussion on calcium supplements. If the supplement is from bones, they are from animals that did not grow up in the US where lead is high.

For more discussion of this topic, see my book, edition 3, in which there are specific recipes you can use for prepare a natural diet using raw meat but supplemented with safe calcium sources.

In summary, raw meat is an excellent food for dogs and cats in my opinion. However, a complete and balanced diet is necessary. Just meat cannot be fed without eventual problems.

[katherine willis]

I am feeding my mini doodle raw. His breeder suggested this. I use an organic kibble in the morning and various raw meats and dairy products in the evening. I also use a canned puppy food. I spoke with my vet who is very positive about raw and uses this approach with his own dog. He gave me a series of articles published in the Whole Dog Journal in 2007. These are an excellent overview of raw, cooking for your dog, canned foods and kibble. They contain many references for follow-up.

I have been concerned about e-coli and other food illnesses found in raw. The articles cover this. My vet also suggested Natures Variety Prairie which is a frozen raw complete food. It comes in 1oz cubes that you defrost. You can choose among various raw meats. There are others suggested in the Journal articles as well as products that you can add to your own raw to ensure the balanced meal needed by your pup.

My puppy (5 months) is thriving on this diet. He is my fourth dog and I admit to being quite nervous about raw. I'm convinced though it is a very good diet for him.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Hi Katherine:
Is there any link to the Journal articles that we could read on-line? I would be very interested in seeing them.

[Doe Asombrado]

I feed Winston Barf on one meal then raw feed the next. I converted him to raw feed after reading Tom Lonsdale's books, Ian Billinghurst's (founder of barf diet) both vets, and another book called "Scared Poopless" (what a name). I've done this before I received Winston. He enjoys barf a lot. I didn't change not so much for food allergy reason, but for prolonged longevity and to reduce the risk of disease states that have been associated with kibble feeding. Tom Lonsdale's book is great resource on studies that have been done, and how this movement started from a medical perspective particularly vet medicine. I make my own Barf patties and then I add raw meaty bones with supplementation. I follow the guidelines for Dr. Ian Billinghurst. Now I'm not saying that kibble feeding is wrong, I just prefer to follow this philosphy because it fits with my own philosophy of nutrition and health.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Hi Doe:
I just wish I could get some impartial information on the subject; Ian Billingshurst, as the founder of the whole movement, is just not objective enough about it for my sensibilities. A Google search on Lonsdale turned up nothing BUT the RMB writings. To my knowledge there have been no scientific studies done at all which prove any benefits of RAW or BARF as opposed to a carefully planned homemade diet. I do know that for epilectic dogs and dogs with liver disease, the raw diets are dangerous. I have been able to find a lot of negative information, which ranges from very-to-not-so reliable sources, but nothing that discusses the positive side of feeding raw from a rational, fact-based perspective that isn't completely fanatical, "my way is the only way" in tone.

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

I agree, Karen. When I started my research I came across a lot of information on Barf and Raw and even bought a couple of books on the subject. I have Lonsdale's, Billnghurst"s and one from a Carina Beth MacDonald. I read all three and things on the internet on the subject. I did not like the almost "religious" nature of this feeding system. There was little scientific facts that I could find but there was several that warned against going this route. One main thing that kept me away from feeding raw was the problems with contamination in our food system, naturally that only cooking saves us from. If we were to eat it raw, we could get sick and it only stood to reason that if that contamination were there and my dogs ate it, they would get sick. A vet who writes in my local newspaper also had similar comments regarding feeding raw, so I have more or less followed that common sense and instead cook my own. I do feed some raw, like marrow bones. But on the whole, I rare cook my beef and fully cook chicken, pork, lamb, turkey and other meats that have traditionally caused problems in humans. That's my thinking.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree with your thinking; I have also seen an article by Ann Martin that brings up some very serious considerations with the contamination issues involved in raw feeding. I even sterilize the marrow bones for 30 seconds in the microwave & add the softened marrow to Jack's kibble before he actually gets the bone, but that's because of his immune system issues. I always gave the raw ones to my very healthy poodle, and when she died at the age of 16, she had an entire mouthful of clean shiny white teeth, no gum disease, and her teeth were never brushed or otherwise cleaned in her entire life. So some bones are definitely good!

[Doe Asombrado]

Karen and Lynn:

From my understanding of the philosophy of prey feeding/raw feeding/or Barf (which is the addition of pulvurized fruits and veggies of the prey they are feeding on), cooking changes the molecular structure of the food and changes the way that body assimilates. Eating in raw state keeps the structure of the food as close to its origin as possible without the dog "hunting its food" . There are those that argue that dogs have been domesticated too long for their digestive system to handle the consumption of raw foods, but how do you explain Fido digging up a dead rat, eating it, and not getting sick? From my understanding the stomach acids of the dogs are different from humans and that they are more hearty and more resilient than humans. That is why a dog can bury its food (i.e. bones, rodents, etc), dig it up several days and eat it without any difficulty. Now like I said, I'm not pushing this on anyone, but there are some anti-aging clinicians I know who practice raw diets for humans including raw meats. Not fanatical, but a lifestyle/philosphical change, that's improved their lives and health conditions dramatically! Now thats a whole different ball game. Anyway I enjoy the healthy debate, but don't want to get caught up on who's right or wrong on this. Interesting topic! Don't think we'll find the exact answers for a while.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

You make a very important point, Doe...It IS an interesting topic, and that's why we want to know more about it. This is definitely all about enjoying the healthy debate, and I'm not sure there is a right or wrong in it...as with almost everything else in life, the "exact answers" probably lie somewhere in the middle. Thanks for your rational input!