GI issues continue

[Kat and Winston]

I wasn't sure where to put this, and I'm sorry it's so long, but we are into month two now of issues.

Winston is 14 weeks old now and really a very sweet puppy with a great personality, but his gut is not.  He does fine on bland food, but add in anything like a bit of kibble(we've tried several) or even just some salmon oil, and the loose stools eventually return.

He was doing pretty well on both chicken and rice and chicken and sweet potato, so I added in the calcium I knew he needed. Still doing well for a few days so I added in just a bit of sardines trying to get him a little bit of fat and DHA, in his diet. He did great on that for a few days, so in his next batch I decided instead of the sardine to just use a scant tsp of salmon oil mixed in to his two days worth of food that I prepared.

By the end of that batch on Sunday his stool was getting soft. Monday I made a new batch with just chicken rice and some sweet potato, but it stayed soft all day and by Tuesday morning it looked like his food had basically ran through him coming out looking like a jar of baby food sweet potatoes. This was the loosest I'd ever seen stool from him so I took the sample in and had him checked out again. 

No parasites, no protozoa, no infection and he'd gained weight, although not as much as I think he should be gaining compared to his litter mates that I've spoken with.  The vet did notice that he only seemed to have one kind of bacteria and the bacteria wasn't even moving. The sample was about 4 hours old by the time our appt. time came, which I did tell him. 

But the thing I'm wondering is if the bacteria the vet could see in the sample was actually the probiotics I'd given him the night before. They were Proviable ,which he's been on for a couple of weeks now, since as I said it honestly looked like his food had run right through him. Maybe the probiotics were just in the undigested food and that's what he saw. I'm going to ask him tomorrow when we go back for his parvo/distemper final shot.

The vet gave me a different probiotic to try in the hopes we can get some good bacteria growing in there. Prostora,  Iams Veterinary Formula. I've read conflicting things about this one, but seems like it's helped a lot of dogs. We also decided to give him Panacur since I keep worrying it's Giardia. I've bleached everything as well just in case.

After his appt. I gave him the panacur and then a while later he ate. He hadn't passed any stool at that point since the sample I'd taken in. His next movement was normal. I didn't give him the new probiotic until right before bed so it can't be given the credit for the formed stool. So maybe it was the salmon oil that had finally cleared his system. I don't know.......

He was great all day Wednesday and then yesterday it was loose once, but that was after the Panacur dose so maybe it was from that. Last night's was formed and so was this morning's.

We really love having this little guy be part of our family. But I just want to not have food and examining stool be such a huge part of my life. I know we don't always get what we want...lol

I just don't know where we go from here. I feel like he's been home 6 weeks tomorrow. He's happy, playing, and acting like a typical puppy should act. I want to be sure that he's getting the nutrients he needs to grow well and have long term good health.  It seem like he handles, chicken, rice, sweet potatoes and oatmeal without issue and possibly sardines, but he needs some oil in there from everything I've read. I give him calcium(bonemeal) so that's covered but what about healthy fat? I'm worried it's impacting his growth and health. I haven't even added in a multi vitamin yet, as I'm worried about how it will effect him, but if we are going to home cook it's got to be added.

He eats his food like he's been starved for days, every. single. time. I bought a slow feeder and that's slowed him down a fair bit. 

Would you keep him on home cooked food, and keep trying to add in oil, or ask for a prescription diet for a while? I just feel a bit lost.

I'm going to be honest. I'm a busy mom with children that I homeschool, and while I don't mind cooking for him for a bit to help him overcome whatever,  I'd still like to know he could eat other food,  at least part of the time. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Kat, what specific kibble formulas have you tried in the past? I need the specific formulas, not just the brand name. 

Proviable is really a much better probiotic than Prostora, and it's doubtful that if the Proviable didn't help, the Prostora would be any better. There is another one, a human probiotic called VSL#3 that has worked wonders for many dogs here with digestive issues and loose stool. There is a large body of research behind it's use in dogs, most notably by the Iowa State veterinary school of medicine, if your vet is interested in learning about it. At any rate, you might consider trying it. It's available w/o prescription at many human pharmacies. I get it at CVS. You want the capsules, not the sachets. It's pricey, but one bottle of capsules will last you two months (give one per day). Must be kept refrigerated.

Always be sure to give the probiotics at least 2 hours apart from any meds. 

The bacteria that your vet saw in the fecal was not from the probiotics. Bacteria have specific shapes and structures which is how your vet identifies one from another. :)

Once you give me the info on which foods Winston has eaten, I may be able to help you find a commercial formula he can eat. He is going to need a grain-free limited ingredient diet. I would not get prescription food; it's just expensive garbage, and has no medicinal or therapeutic ingredients. 

One thing you might consider for now is Honest Kitchen's base mix. That will give Winston all the nutrients he needs; all you have to do is add the chicken or whatever protein you want to use. https://www.thehonestkitchen.com/dog-food/base-mix

[Kat and Winston]

He came home on Victor active dog and puppy, then he was on Earthborne Holistic Vantage Puppy, then I tried California Natural Chicken and Rice (thought it was the puppy but ended up being the adult one I grabbed by mistake) and the last one I tried was Natural Balance sweet potatoes and Bison.

You mentioned grain free but he seems to handle the rice and oatmeal ok for the most part. It seems like it's the fat or oil or extra stuff they must put in that sets him off.

I actually tried just doing sweet potato and chicken for a bit but a couple of times he'd vomit early morning and it was just bile and I read that was common from his stomach being empty and he could eat fine right after. So I feel like he needs something that digests slower at least at night.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It's hard to say which ingredients in the kibbles you've tried might have caused the problems. Fat can cause loose stools and diarrhea, as you've seen when you tried adding the fish oil and sardines to his diet; however, some of the food you listed are very low in fat, so I tend to think that his problems with the kibbles weren't related to that. A lot of dogs with sensitive stomachs do have trouble with grains, though, so most limited ingredient diets are grain-free, or contain just oatmeal, which can be easier on the digestive system. The Earthborne formula is very grain heavy, and also has a fairly high fat content. The Cal. Natural formula is extremely grain heavy, with only 21% protein and 11% fat, and it also is very low in fiber, which may also have been an issue. After looking at the nutritional profile, I think that food would have caused digestive issues even in a dog who never had any, lol. (One reason we don't recommend the brand). The Nat. Balance formula is even lower in protein, at just 20%, and with only 10% fat, it's obvious that it is also carb heavy. Most dogs with these issues do best on low carb, moderate fat, higher protein diets with good fiber content and limited ingredients. One that has worked very well for many owners is Wellness Natural Balance Salmon-Potato, which has a really nice nutritional profile and a gorgeous DHA/EPA fatty acid content as well as an excellent Omega 6:3 ratio. I would want to get a good colony of beneficial bacteria established before starting another new kibble, though. And it might be that he needs a canned or dehydrated raw formula.

A cup of chicken and sweet potatoes (or chicken and rice) contains only about 200 calories, which is less than half the calorie content of most kibbles, so when you feed a homemade bland diet, you usually have to feed about twice as much as you would kibble. That may have been part of the cause of his vomiting bile in the a.m., if he wasn't getting enough food at dinner.  Most owners whose dogs have this problem also find that giving a small amount of food 30-60 minutes before bed solves that problem. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

A couple of other questions: Has he ever been on metronidazole (Flagyl)? What does he get in the way of treats or chews, if anything? Is it possible he's ingesting anything he shouldn't, maybe outdoors? 

[Kat and Winston]

He could have eaten a few leaves or bugs, but I'm very careful to watch him outside the entire time and scoop out any leaves he manages to grab, which is becoming less and less, but he is honestly never ever alone unless he is in his crate. When out of crate he's usually on a leash in the main part of our house or in our sunroom with us (tile floor in there, and not much he could chew other than the furniture, even if we were distracted for a minute) where he is allowed off leash a to play with the kids, but then right back on the very light weight one so he can't get behind the furniture, so I don't think he's eating anything he shouldn't.

I keep a close track of counting calories with the home cooked meals to make sure he's getting as much as he would with kibble. I try to break it up into 4 meals since it requires feeding a larger amount. He usually has his last meal around 6:30 -7:00.

I've been a bit worried about feeding a mostly fish heavy diet which will likely seem silly, but he will be getting neutered at 7-8 months and I worry about the impact so much fish could have on blood platelets etc. I also am surprised they use regular white potatoes in their LID instead of at least sweet potatoes. I've read conflicting things about potatoes.

I've actually been considering the Honest Kitchen base where I can add my own cooked meat so might try introducing some of that slowly once he's actually been having good stools for a week or so straight.

Can you tell me if the meat in canned food is raw?  I have a real problem feeding our dog raw meat since he interacts with my children and they sometimes handle his dog bowl etc. giving him his dinner or picking it up when he is done eating etc. Of course we teach good hygiene, but children are still children and I would just not be comfortable with raw meat.

Also what is your thoughts on flaxseed? So many foods have it today and I've read it can cause stomach upset and is harder for the animal to get the benefits since they have to convert it to the form they can utilize

Thanks for your suggestions and help Karen. It is always appreciated.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The meat in canned food is not raw. No worries there. However, Honest Kitchen is raw. 

It's been thoroughly documented that dogs cannot convert or utilize the Omega 3 fatty acids from flaxseed. They must get it from fish. 

I honestly would not worry about a fish-based diet causing any issues with bleeding. I haven't researched that specifically, but there are just too many animals (and people) on fish-based diets that if it were an issue, we'd have evidence of that. I can tell you that Jack has been on a fish-based diet for many years, and has unfortunately had many veterinary procedures as well. Never any problems with platelets or bleeding. Wellness also makes a Turkey-Potato formula in the Simple line, if you'd prefer to try that. The nutritional profile, while not as great as the Salmon formula, is still very good, and much better than that of the formulas you listed.

There is no solid fact-based evidence that white potatoes are in any way harmful or detrimental to dogs. 

I hope this helps. :)

[Kat and Winston]

Thanks Karen,

I meant to add that he has not been on flagyl as far as I know, but what happened at the breeders is anybody's guess. 

Good to know about the fish. Perhaps we'll give that one a try in the wet form and then move to the dry if he does well. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Please keep us posted. I hope you can get a handle on this and turn it around, and with all the thought and research you're putting into it, I really think you will. :) 

[Kat and Winston]

The one thing I don't understand is why the wellness fish has flaxseed added. You'd think they'd get enough Omega 3s from the Fish.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Good question. ALA does have some benefits for dogs due to its antioxidant properties, so that may be the reason.