Having to take Jack off Orijen or at least mixing it

[Jennifer and Jack]

This has been such a long ongoing process for me. When it was just Jack that had the inflamed bowel loops and constipation/loose stool I was thinking for sure that it was just because of issues going on here.

Molly was at the vet yesterday, I didn't post on here because it was just for dehydration/diarrhea and so many of you have such bigger issues. The did some testing on Molly and Molly also has inflamed bowels.  Thickened loops etc. They actually were not totally sure she did not ingest something since she was so inflamed.

This was Molly's vet in Hilton Head and while I am less then impressed with the foods she recommended, she agreed Orijen is a good food, a great food but that some dogs, especially little ones with sensitive stomachs can not handle the richness and that she has seen more and more dogs come in with inflamed bowels.

My mom who is 70 years old and still lives by the idea that doctor is right no matter what, was ready to put Molly on Royal Canine or whatever it is called. 

I had started cutting Jack's Orijen a while back and mixing it with Fromm grains and it seems like that has helped a bit with Jack, however, we are going back to Dick Van Pattens Natural Balance. It is an okay enough dog food, it is the dog food both Molly and Jack came to us on, Jack loved it, ate well on it and his poops were perfect.

I will update you in a few months after Jack and Molly have been on it, to let you know how their poops are, and I will be getting another test of Jack's intestines to see if the swelling went down.

You know it was a hard decision because I know Orijen is so good, however, if I can get the inflammation down in Jack and now Molly's intestines, I will be thrilled. Sometimes good enough has to be good enough...and Jack and Molly  eating and pooping appropriately is going to have to be good enough. 

I am glad DVP is at least an acceptable form of dog food, though not the best.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

Jennifer, you do what is best for your dogs.  Even though Orijen is awesome, it doesn't work well for some (for instance, Peri does much better with healthy grains in her diet).

That is why we try to keep a current recommended list. You aren't feeding one of those junk foods, so that is good!

[Jennifer and Jack]

Thanks so much!!!! Jack did so good on DVP, his poop was always perfect.....watching him struggle and then to see physical evidence of it on film means I just have to reevaluate and do something different.. It is what it is and I appreciate your support.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I am going through this now myself, and having a hard time with it.

What confuses me though about Jack & Molly's situation is that I don't understand how the vet can tell that they have inflamed bowels, since the past 6 weeks has taught me that the only way to know that is by doing an endoscopy and/or colonoscopy. It does not show up on plain X-rays, barium X-rays, or ultrasound, blood tests, or any other lab tests. They can suspect it, but they cannot know.

And, when there is an inflammation and not just an irritation, even then  there are different types of inflammation, so the kinds of abnormal calls they find helps dictate the treatment. Eosinophils are the cells that most clearly point to dietary allergies or intolerances, and that can be an intolerance or an allergy to a particular ingredient. In that case, richness of the food is not the issue, it's trying to eliminate the offending ingredient. In other cases, it may be a case of too much fat, too much fiber, etc. which is contributing to the inflammation. But true chronic bowel inflammation is immune mediated and requires medication in addition to dietary changes. This is the difference between IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) and IBD (Inflammatory Bowel Disease.) I never understood it until now. IBD is a very serious disease which cannot be cured, only managed, and in some cases can become life-threatening.

We have other dogs here with IBS who just cannot eat Orijen or sometimes any kibble, and have had to go to limited ingredient diets, home-cooked diets, dehydrated raw, etc. You do what you need to do for your dog. There is no need for shame or guilt because your dog has a condition that makes it impossible for him to eat the "best" dog food.

But in the interests of presenting clear information here, so that hopefully others will be better equipped and prepared to deal with what I have been dealing with this past many weeks, I think that we need to make it clear that unless Jack and Molly have had biopsies done, you may be dealing with IBS and not IBD.

[Jennifer and Jack]

Jack had ultrasounds done that actually measured the thickness of his bowels and that is why I was told he had thickened bowel, and that the area was inflamed, Molly only had x rays done and the vet also said the same thing, thickened bowel loops. I don't want to give misinformation, or say they have a disease of any kind.I don't know how they can tell me this information about their bowels if they are just guessing, they said they saw it on x ray. I know Jack's ultrasound I was told just how much thicker it was then it was supposed to be, so they were measuring something, Maybe they were assuming the inflammation since it was thickened. I don't know, don't think about us. Just know we love and appreciate you so much.

Just for us, it will be easier to switch diets and see how it goes, We were very close to having a biopsy but we didn't get one yet. If his food change to a LID does not work, a biopsy is next.

In know way shape or form would I want to mislead anyone....I can't imagine how frustrated you are Karen, I think about you and JD all the time, I want so bad for you to have answers. I have tried to think of ways I could help including doing a fund raiser to help defray some of the costs of Jack's care.... I would do anything I could because I know how torturous it must be for you. 

If I had a magic wand, I would give it to you first...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Jen, we appreciate your kind thoughts.

Regarding X-rays, ultrasounds, etc., the article I posted below may help make it clearer. They simply cannot tell the kinds of things you are talking about from those tests. They are basically done to rule out everything else.

Believe me, I have researched this until my head is spinning, and consulted with two GP vets, an emergency room vet, and three specialists, and biopsy or surgery is the only way to diagnose inflammation of the bowels. Not only that, but it's the only way to know for sure if the disease is in remission. :(

In fact, there is a support group for owners of dogs with IBD, and you cannot qualify for membership without a diagnosis confirmed by scope or surgery, because without it, you just don't know that's what it is. Not that it's anything anyone would want to qualify for, but the point is that there are a lot of GI issues that are not IBD, and be hopeful it's not.

At any rate, good luck with Jack & Molly's new diet, I hope the transition goes well.

[F, Calla & Luca]

A biopsy alone is the way to tell what is affecting the bowel wall. It could be thickened from a number of things including edema, fibrosis etc. The thickening can be seen by a number of means I think. You can only recognize the specifics by microscopically examining the tissue under a microscope.

[F, Calla & Luca]

True enough. And best is a relative term since something that your dog doesn't do well on is not the best in that circumstance.

[Jennifer and Jack]

Thanks F. I am going to do something I don't usually do and that is try a conservative approach. I think the misunderstanding on my part is that I am using the word thickening and inflammation interchangeably  and they are not.

What a great day it is going when everything gets figured out!!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

A good, clear explanation of Inflammatory Bowel Disease in dogs.

[Jennifer and Jack]

Thanks Karen, I read that and book marked it.

[Leslie and Halas]

You have to do what's best for Jack and Molly.  If they seem to be having a tough time with the Orijen, it makes sense to try something else.  I hope you can find something that works well for them.

[Jennifer and Jack]

So just an update, Jack has been on Dick Van Pattens LID since the beginning of January. His stools are finally well formed and an excellent consistency. He still is not eating a lot of it but he is eating more then he ever has.

 Jack had a follow up x ray of his abdomen and I know you can not tell what is causing it but the thickness in his intestines has already decreased.

I have no idea about Molly, her stools are good but she did not have a follow up x ray, There was not a need.

While I am less then thrilled about giving my baby a food that the first ingredient is potato, I am most thrilled that he can not express his own anal glands, and overall has better digestion.

After a couple of months I may try to mix in a small portion of Orijen but for now... YAY!!!!