How to get around my issues with raw food... help?!

[Jennifer Goaring]

OK...
so I searched the raw food topic here and found some old posts -- one
mentioned the concern about human contamination and that is my biggest
issue as well... that and the whole smell/look/yuck of dog who is
eating raw and then wants to give the toddler kisses... EWWW.

So I get the concept... food will have good protein, is ancestral based, good water content, chewing bones is good for teeth, taking apart a
carcass is good for jaws and also slows down the eating process vs.
gulping down kibble and possibly over eating... poo should be more
compact due to less waste, could be cheaper than the high quality
kibble as you can look for butchers and good deals. I think of it a lot
like someone going from eating fast food (kibble) and switching to a
"clean diet" meaning nothing processed... but maybe there is a middle
road... something like homecooked? I just am not sure I can stomach the
idea of watching the dog tear into a carcass even if it is good for
him... and not sure how the kids will handle it or where to even feed
him -- certainly not in my kitchen or the crate which has all his
blankets and such in it and is it so good for them that it is worth
feeding the dog outside all the time... which I don't think he would
like (very social these doodles are). Even outside I would guess there
could be a mess.

I know they have products that are pre-ground (so you lose the bone chewing/tearing apart a carcass benefit) but it
would still be raw, still be should be better than kibble according to
the arguments put out there.

Just been feeling a tad guilty about the kibble ever since the pup came home because I did really
agree with most of what I was reading about the raw stuff. Would be
fine if someone talks me into why kibble is still great... just trying
to figure out what will work out best for this pup who is our family's
first dog.

Jen G.

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

Jen, have you checked out The Food Group? Many of us Homecook, here on DK.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Hey, guys, we are in the Food Group, lol!

[F, Calla & Luca]

Too funny!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I second what the others have said. Here in The Food Group, we have whole discussions on homecooking your dog's food, which is the "happy medium" you may be looking for. We also have lots of info about premium kibbles that are high-protein, grain-free, made by small private companies, and contain no dangerous preservatives or fillers. The information about kibble that is presented on most raw feeding websites is out-of-date and scientifically inaccurate. There is not one study showing that any of the claims about raw feeding, RMB, BARF, etc. are true, or that raw food is any better for your dog than homecooked, premium kibble, or a combination of the two. Not one. All of their information is anecdotal.
This is not to say that raw feeding isn't an option, but there are many others besides either raw or unhealthy processed foods.

[Tammy & Gracie]

I homecook for my dood but like you, I theoretically like the idea of raw, just can't stomach it.....
There are commercial raw diets out there that are all done, you just slice and serve which I would find alot less disgusting. However, I love to cook. My human family members are not very adventurous in their food preferences but Gracie will eat and LOVE anything I do for her. So it works......

[Nugget's Family]

Jen-

We feed our dood a prepared raw diet. I was very squeamish about it at first, too (I am a bit of a germa-phobe) but my husband was very much in favor of it and said he would cut it up, divide it up, etc.. So, we went with it. Our dog is now 3.5 years old and she's still on this diet and my husband is still cutting it up! :-) She was fed the same diet by the breeder. When she first came home to us, we fed her whole, raw chicken parts for about the first 6 months. I would put an old plastic tablecloth in her outdoor crate (we used to keep one on the deck when she was little for just this purpose so she wouldn't carry the raw food all over the place). We noticed, that as her growth slowed down, she wasn't as keen on the raw chicken anymore. I actually think it might have more to do with the fact that we started obedience training at that time and she was being trained using cooked beef cubes which she LOVES and prefers. So, now she eats the raw blend (BRAVO Raw Diet) veggies, fruit and cooked meat for treats...and of course bully sticks which, honestly, freak me out more than the raw meat. I mean really....who was the first person to think that up???

This diet has worked for us. However, there are lots of good dog food options out there. I know if you're reading some of those "adamant" raw feeding websites you're being made to think raw is the only way to feed which is ridiculous. (Some of those websites are pretty "over-the-top") There are a lot of really high quality kibbles out there. And, my family dog growing up.... a terrier/beagle mix... ate a "homecooked" diet before we knew what that was (table scraps, veggies from my dad's garden and a scoop of dry dog food) and she lived to be a very healthy 18 years old. I think we took her to the vet 2 or three times in her whole life! So, do what's nutritionally sound for the dog and works for your family.

Susan

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

"the bottom line is that kibbel requires a very high level of heat processing and some level of preservative to make it last in a bag on the shelf. Often times some elements of the food have been heat processed not once but twice, for example the protein element of most kibble is purchased from a different company and they heat process it before they ship it to the kibble company who then adds it to their formulation and heat processes it again as part of their kibble production"
Kerry, this is not true of the kibbles we recommend in this group. Most of them are made by small companies which do not buy their ingredients through food brokers or third parties, they purchase fresh local ingredients and process it themselves. Orijen is one such company. Many of them are also baked at lower temperatures, not subjected to high heat, and do not have long shelf lives requiring preservatives. The information you cited above is what I have also read on the raw feeding websites and forums, but it applies to inferior products which we do not recommend here under any circumstances.
One thing we insist on here in the Food Group is factual information. A statement like " there have been more cases of salmonella from contaminated bully sticks and pigs ears than raw fed dogs" requires verification in the form of a link to the study from which you got this information.
There is also no scientific or factual basis to the statement that "you are probably going to have one healthy/happy dog, with very few vet bills." There is nothing medicinal or curative about raw food as opposed to cooked food, in fact nutritionally it is identical, and health depends on many factors. Food is just fuel, it is not medicine, and contrary to what you read on the raw feeding sites, it cannot guarantee health.
"really and trully the bottom line of kibble is that it is processed convenience food for dogs" - This is your opinion, not a fact and certainly not the "bottom line". There are many of us for whom kibble is a healthful and beneficial part of our dogs' diets. Just as you would not want someone here criticizing you for feeding your dogs what many veterinary nutrition experts consider a risky and incomplete diet, we do not appreciate your making this statement about a method that the majority of us here use to feed our dogs.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I am having trouble understanding why you feel that anyone here wants "one uniform opinion". In this one discussion alone, people have made suggestions ranging from high end kibble to homecooked meals to commercial raw products, to your comment about RMB feeding. Everyone is free to say "This is what I do", or "this is what worked for me"
People are very confused about the issue of feeding their dogs. They get information from advertising, vets, people in forums, clerks in stores, and some of this info is not accurate or truthful. The whole purpose of this group is to present factual information in order to help people make informed choices. We have worked very hard here over the past two years to research all issues pertaining to canine nutrition. We are one of the largest and most active groups here on DK, and I believe you will find that most of our members are very happy with what they have learned here. We also have dogs with medical issues, and we try to help these owners find feeding solutions that work for them. If someone is unable to feed the diet that we personally think is best, we try to help them find alternatives without shaming, blaming, or as you yourself put it, "ranting". I believe we are very open to hearing about different experiences and products. However, you can find someone who will rave about any product, even the cheapest carcinogen-filled kibble from Walmart. For this reason, we have guidelines, one of which is that we base our recommendations on facts and research. This is not a "chat" forum. It is one thing to say "Here is what I do" or "This is what worked for my dog", and another to make unsubstantiated claims, particularly about health benefits. As the owner of a dog with an incurable genetic disease, I know how much frustration and harm such statements cause, however well-meant they may be. This is why we ask for factual information rather than opinions when it comes to health issues.
We do not place much stock in the opinions of vets when it comes to nutrition, BTW, whether they are for or against raw feeding. We do, however, heed the advice of veterinary nutrition specialists.
I also have trouble understanding how you could think it is "friendly" to tell people that the food they have chosen to feed their dogs, often at great trouble and expense, is "convenience food". It is critical, and it smacks of "My way is right, your way is misguided." No one here criticized your method of feeding your dogs, or raw feeding in general, and I simply asked you for the same courtesy.
We have spent a great deal of time & effort here in this group to help people find methods of feeding their dogs about which they could feel comfortable, and that includes kibble. The co-administrator of this group lost a dog to the melamine in the 2007 recalled dog food. She knows better than anyone the difference between fresh foods prepared at home and commercial dog foods. But she also knows that trying to "make people think about their choices" is the surefire way to "make" them tune you out. We don't "make" anyone do anything. We simply present facts & try to help.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

"and of course bully sticks which, honestly, freak me out more than the raw meat. I mean really....who was the first person to think that up???"

One of the all-time great classic lines in Food Group history, which shall be quoted for many years to come! ROFL!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Jennifer, do you feed your children an all natural diet, with no processed foods, and everything made from scratch with fresh foods? No breakfast cereals from a box? No Kraft Mac n cheese? No bread filled with preservatives in a plastic wrapper? No peanut butter and jelly with preservatives and corn syrup? No Macdonald's? And (rhetorical question, don't answer, lol) did you breast feed until your children were on cow's milk, or did you ever give your babies formula?
I can show you a million studies and present you with factual information about why all of these things are unhealthy and/or inferior methods of feeding your children. I'm sure you've seen much of the info yourself. Do you feel a tad guilty about this? After all, our ancestors didn't eat food from boxes and jars, or feed their babies from bottles. Are you going to start grinding your own peanuts and baking your own bread?
I hope you know I am not picking on you, I am trying to make the point that we worry more about what we are feeding our dogs than we do about what we are feeding our children. We all do our best within our own comfort range, budget, and life style to care for our kids and our dogs, and that includes the ways in which we feed them. If you want to feed raw, there are people here willing to help you. But don't feel that you have to feed raw to do right by your dog, and for heaven's sake, don't feel guilty for not being comfortable with it.
We are all here to help you choose the feeding method that's right for your doodle and for you.

[Jennifer Goaring]

I personally have changed my diet to be very minimal processed food... I do buy bread from the store but have been known to make my own as well... and to make my own pizza dough too :) but I really don't eat anything that comes in a box anymore. I do buy yogurt from the store, organic milk from the store... etc. You get the idea. But my kids aren't on board with it all and neither is DH so of course he makes them mac n cheese in a box still when I am not here and I work nights so am not home for dinner 3 nights per week, so I can't really dictate. But you get why I am torn about the doodle... he is like my 5th kid and so far is he one I have some control over in terms of diet and such... DH has no idea that he is eating premium kibble and what it costs ;)

None of my kids have ever had formula... and that includes a set of twins. So I do have a pretty strong tendency towards natural eating. (I have joined the" naturally living doodles" group now too :))

Ha ha -- we do buy the peanut butter that is from the store where you turn the grind and get your own peanut butter in a container from peanuts only and that is what I am using in Sammy's kong.

I do appreciate your point though... but you do see that I worry about this all with my kids and my dog... so at least I am guilty across the board!

I guess I should have realized this topic may start a debate... that wasn't my intention. I was hoping some people would give me cleaner, easier ways to feed raw if I went that way... or give me some ideas about why kibble isn't all that bad for them. At the moment I am still torn... but like the idea that variety and changing it up regularly isn't such a bad idea.

I don't feel picked on at all BTW... I know what you are saying. I hope no one is really upset with anyone else on this forum either. Thanks for ALL the feedback comments... I do appreciate it.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I did the same things that you do, and this was at a time when people thought I was insane for "tying myself down" with breastfeeding, and cooking a hot lunch from scratch for a 2 year old. (I did not in turn tell them I thought they were insane for giving their kids white bread smeared with corn syrup for lunch, lol.) So I completely understand.
Maybe the commercial raw diets that a few people here have recommended would be a good way for you to go. These are much safer in terms of bacteria than meat from the butcher, etc. You might supplement with bones for the chewing aspect. Many of our members have also had phenomenal success with homecooking fresh foods for their dogs; this has been a great solution for dogs with IBS and grain or mite allergies, in addition to healthy dogs.
As far as kibble goes, my own dog has a genetic immune disease, and is in the care of a veterinary specialist. Unlike general practice vets, she is well-informed on canine nutritional issues, and she recommends Orijen for him, supplemented with fresh cooked meat, poultry, and fish. He has done very well with this diet. So I hope this helps reassure you that you need not feel guilty about making a good kibble part of your dog's diet.
Good luck, please keep us posted on what you decide.