Nutrition 101-Just The Facts, Ma'am!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think much of the confusion about feeding our dogs stems from our general confusion and lack of knowledge about nutrition in general...after all, many of us are not sure about what we should be eating ourselves. In this discussion, we'll try to give & get some basic facts about what food IS, what it does, and what it DOESN'T do...including the effects of diet on allergies and other illnesses.

[Adina P]

On puppies and protein. It has been said that too much 'protein' in puppy food can make a puppy grow too fast and cause joint/bone problems. This response on petdiets.com refutes this claim: http://petdiets.com/faqs/display_faq.asp?ID=29

I was thinking about this and humans as a result of running across this response. INadequate nutrition (protein, calories, etc) can STUNT growth of human children in certain critical years. Those same children who were growth stunted, would have grown TALLER had they had adequate calories/protein/etc. However, I am not aware of ANY study in humans where extra food made anyone taller...fatter...but not taller. So I'm wondering...has anyone seen research to support the claim that feeding puppies 'too much' protein or food will cause them to grow too much or too fast vs. just grow too WIDE?

I may be missing info on both sides...but just wondering if anyone has such data.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I keep seeing references to studies & research on this topic, but have yet to see info on when & where the studies were done, or who did them. I am repeatedly seeing information that large breed dogs grow much more slowly, including the bone & joint growth, and that doing anything to cause faster growth can contribute to issues such as hip dyplasia. The information is presented on reputable veterinary info websites, but they never say WHAT study is being cited. There does seem to be widespread agreement that a lot depends on the breed with regard to protein requirements for puppies.

[Adina P]

It just seems so interesting that feeding a dog more will make them grow more. Makes me wonder if in reality what is being recommended is a bit of growth stunting by controlling protein. But I am SOOO speculating beyond what I understand...I better STOP!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It doesn't make much sense to me either; it reminds me of reptiles, the way some of them will grow as big as their space allows, or stay smaller if they are confined & their food supply is limited.

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

I have been looking at several similar issues regarding bone growth of late and will try, but do not know that I have my head wrapped around it enough to intelligently speak of it. My research actually began with the claims that ESN caused bone and growth plate issues. Yesterday I was able to attend the Global Pet Expo in Orlando. In one instance of conversation the issue of protein and puppies/bone development came up. Mention of the calcium/phosphate correlation came up and the source of protein. I am going to try to get this right, and it did make sense to me yesterday but it is morning = ) ~ It was stated that IF the source of protein was meal (and let me clarify, they were not saying the meal was bad - only the bring to light the quality of the meal) and that meal was largely used to increase the protein AND that the meal was also comprised of the entire animal (to include bone hence a higher calcium intake, also with ash raising phosphorous which often is the case when coming from incinerated animals) then perhaps we should be looking at not the protein in itself as a causitive, but the make-up of that protein. Of a particular food I was told their meal was derived from deboned lamb and so while 'high' protein, it was not also skewed with high levels of calcium and phosphorous that may be dangerously close to the high end of the ASPA guidelines. IF this is fact then this certainly puts a new twist on those that have gone before and indicated it was the 'protein' that might be a causitive in accelerated bone growth. In my head (which might be a scary place to visit) as with any suspected condition that high levels of protein might be associated with, like kidney issues or bone growth, I do not feel we can just look at the protein ratio and make a blanket statement that 'oh it is too high that is what caused it'. We do know that some proteins are better absorbed or utilized than others, some work better with other ingredients or factors, some are poor choices when used merely to raise the % of protein without taking in the whole pic ~ gluten is a fine example of that. Heck, we can get protein from bacon ~ but is that the best choice to obtain it? Additionally once we begin to account for not only the level of protein, but of its source and how that no longer exclusively isolates protein certainly we also need to look at the other levels and ingredients and how they work together. If a good fat, like cold pressed fish oil is reduced to raise protein with bone, gluten, etc... then can we accurately say that it was not the low levels of other such ingredients or that it is exclusively a high protein content?

Humbly stepping down now while I await those that have the brains to step up, not that I do not have it BUT mine is not the trained one only the inquisitive, hungry one so I will assume the role of brawn ok?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I certainly can't argue with any of this; I am particularly glad that you clarified the issue of "meal", Dianne, as I have read much conflicting information. Meal which consists of a high quality protein source from which the moisture has been removed (such as the deboned lamb you mentioned) is actually a better source of protein than just the lamb, in terms of grams of protein by weight.
I had already seen the excess calcium questioned in connection to bone & joint growth in puppies. The phosphorus connection is interesting. I have seen studies in humans wherein excess phosphorus has been linked to not just bone problems, but to problems with general body composition (unhealthy ratio of body fat to lean mass), which makes sense, because much of what constitutes lean mass IS bone. I think you have made some very good points here, and it helps to illustrate that we can't jump to conclusions or single out one particular nutrient as a culprit. Goes to what we already know...all nutrients work together in the body, and there must be a balance. Thanks for this info.

[Adina P]

Good points/info Dianne.
There are multiple ways to look at protein:
Content--actual GRAM amount per serving vs. % of calories vs. % of weight
Quality--which can be debatable I guess. Sometimes quality and source are connected, sometimes they are not.
Source--which may not have to do with the protein (amino acids) content or quality per se, but the source might have other issues (such as in cases of contamination or allergens).

So in the bacon example...protein from bacon is not very diff from protein from 'healthier' parts of a pig. BUT...the bacon itself is not the healthiest overall FOOD. There really is no food with absolutely 0 protein...protein is integral to the structure of any living thing (plant or animal). But some things have more and some things are healthier and the things with MORE are not always better and the things with less are not always bad (and vice versa).

I think I have the brains here...but NOT the knowledge...LOL. So ultimately I can only ask questions, but don't know where to look and don't have time to.

[Adina P]

I JUST ordered: Pet Food Politics: The Chihuahua in the Coal Mine by Marion Nestle

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Lynne has been reading this; I've read excerpts. It's eye-opening. Marion Nestle has a new one coming out now, too; something about "What Pets Eat", that will hopefully provide more info & guidance for all of us on this baffling topic. The Bark magazine has been doing excerpts, it looks wonderful.

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

I have to keep putting it down because it P*SS*S me off so much. They KNEW! They knew months and maybe years before the big recall of 2007 and did NOTHING.

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

Lynne, I have had to read it with the same technique. On one hand I swiftly turn the pages to see 'who done it' and cannot believe it as it unravels before my eyes on the other hand it makes me sick to my stomach, angry and an emotional basket case. Then I HAVE to pick it up and so do you because knowledge and education is the only best way to do our part in sharing to make sure this never happens again.

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

I do! I just have to keep putting it down because I get so mad. As I said before...THEY KNEW and said nothing to us. Maybe our dogs would still be alive.