Bear........

[Holly Paterniti]

So we are continuing our training and it was going well, but now all of a sudden Bear does not want to do what is asked of him :(  The Har-Vest was working and now he just looks at me like I am killing him :(  The Trainer says to keep trying, but it is really getting frustrating!!!!

Did anyone else go through this?  I am trying to stay with it, but it is really discouraging :(  Please could you give me words of encouragement?  Or tell me your experiences????

I really need some hope this will all work out :(

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Holly, I'm not sure what the Har-Vest is....could you say a little more about it.  Also, what are you working on with your trainer, and what are you doing when Bear refuses to respond to one of your commands?  I don't know exactly what method you're using with Bear, but training does take a really long time with some of these dogs.  I know that I've been working with Murphy for a little over a year, and he is far from "done".  We've made great progress in some areas, but he's definitely got months more training ahead.  The way I look at it, I have to keep going with the training...because there really isn't any other good choice.  I need a dog who is reliable and trust-worthy, so I'm going to have to do whatever it takes to get there.  But I do understand how difficult and discouraging it is at times....believe me.  It has been a tough week for us too, but I'll just keep working...and it will get better.  If you can give us a little more info about the approach you're using, there are lots of members of the group who I'm sure can give you some good advice.

[Holly Paterniti]

The Har-Vest is like the Thundershirt, but it looks like what the working dogs wear when they have them on.  It is supposed to make them calmer......and it really does help :)  He was doing really well with it all summer long, but then all of a sudden he did not want to have it on and will not do the commands he did prior to this stubborn attitude came :(

He did so well the other night when the trainer was here with her dog.  It was great.....he did every command and more.  But then the following day, I tried to do the same and he just looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language.  Now he runs when I try to put the Har-Vest on......it is so frustrating :(

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Well I think the Har-Vest is probably very helpful for calming, but it's probably only part of the answer for training.  I'm sure your trainer is using some sort of method or technique in her training....is she teaching YOU those techniques?  If Bear is following the commands for the trainer but not you, then IMO there's either an issue of how he perceives you or you're doing something different than the trainer.  You may already be doing this, but I found it helpful to have my trainer watch me and then tell me how I might have done things differently to get better results.

[Adina P]

I agree with Jane.  I know whenever something isn't 'working' in my training with Rosco or Boca it is because I'm doing something wrong.  In fact, I've never had my trainer look at a training video or watch me in person and NOT find something I need to do differently.  So I find it strange that your trainer just said "keep trying".  When something isn't working it is either the dog needing to be convinced of your consistency (so you do have to repeat it a lot), you doing it wrong, or the method simply being a poor one. So it COULD be that you need to just 'keep trying' but I'm also curious what it is that you do.  Can you describe in great detail to help us picture a training session?

 

So describe the day after your trainer was there when he just looked at you.  WHAT were you telling him to do?  What was he doing prior to that?  Explain your positioning (where were you?  Where was he?).  What did you tell him to do and when he just looked at you what happened next?

 

 

[Holly Paterniti]

Actually, the trainer does watch and tells/shows me what to do......but like I said the one time she had come over she saw how he was reacting and she had noticed that he would not do the command "sit" even when she commanded it.  Then we realized he was not being enticed by my treats and she brought some with her which he ate, which was hotdogs.  So the next time I trained with him, I used hotdogs and he did it :)  But I am thinking he is picky about his treats and do not want to repeat the same treat. 

With this week's session, he was ok, but I think he was side tracked because of her dog being here too.  He did every command "sit, stay", "down" (with the hand motion), "heal", "touch"..........and he was happy :)  But then when I tried to work with him yesterday all he did was pout. 

When I give him the command "sit"  I hold the treat in with my thumb, forefinger and middle finger........then bend my wrist up.  This was one command we discovered with him worked........and he continues to do this.

As for as "down", at the beginning I held the treats in my hand in a form of a fist, but enough where Bear can lick and get the taste of the treat.  I placed my hand on the floor (which he is right in front of me) and slightly move my hand and then keep it there and he actually got it.  At first, I would move around and she told me to just stand still.  The other night the trainer was here......he would go down when I would point to the floor even before I said "down". 

Like I said he was doing so well.........I am going to try different treats......besides hotdogs. I know for now he is motivated by food......and I am thinking he is a picky dog and does not like eating the same treats 2 days in the row?

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I think there are some dogs who are just not food motivated enough for treats to be motivational.  My Murphy is like that.  He likes treats, of course, but they're not enough for him to behave differently...he's too strong willed for that.  I personally believe that probably the strongest component of training is motivation.  For some dogs this means corrections.  If your trainer is a positive reinforcement only trainer, and this method is not working for Bear, you may want to look at a different trainer or approach.  Every time you give Bear the option of "deciding" for himself whether or not he wants to comply with one of your commands based on the value of the food, you are setting his training back.  Compliance should never be optional.....when you tell him to do something, he needs to do it.  If he doesn't he should be corrected (IMO) and then you need to make him do it.  If he chooses not to sit because he's holding out for a better treat, you need to place him in the sit position.  I do give you a lot of credit for the work you're doing with Bear...but I worry that the approach doesn't seem to be working for this particular dog, and it may be time to think about other possible approaches.

[Adina P]

I'm with Jane on this one.  But I also greatly dislike this type of treat training.  It trains him what response gets a 'cookie' but isn't actually training him to respond to a command...instead he responds to a cookie bribe so that if he FEELS like sitting/downing/coming/heeling when he sees the bribe then he'll do it.  But if the bribe isn't there or he doesn't really want it right then...then he can blow you off entirely.  I think there are ways to do treat training more effectively than this method of sticking a treat in the dog's face and luring them into a position--that's the TEACHING phase.  But there HAS to be a quick weaning off of the lure/bribe or else that is the only way a dog will actually do what the command says...IF he feels like it.  Then it's always the hunt for the better and tastier treat that will outdo the previous treat that no longer works.

 

I want a dog that will respond to the command...not to whether or not I'm holding a chunk of filet mignon in my pocket or between my fingers. 

 

In any case there has got to be a strong incentive for a dog to do something.  He either has to badly want the 'prize' or he has to want to avoid the consequence for not obeying.  But the prize can't be given as a bribe or else it ONLY works for teaching what a word means (like SIT means put butt on ground) but won't work for getting obedience when you don't have a treat in front of his nose.

[Carol Brand]

I could not agree more.  When I train, I don't show the dogs the food.   I keep food in my mouth or in my pockets.  If I get a quick, correct response to a command then TREAT!  (Delivered typically out of my mouth.)   If not, though, the dogs get a correction.  They have to learn that there is a consequence for non-compliance.  They learn very quickly that they can do things the hard way or the easy way.

 

I think it sounds like you are cutting Bear too much slack. 

 

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Personally, I am not in favor of treat training.  I am not opposed to giving treats, but it seems when treats are THE method for getting the dog to do something, pretty soon the treats have to be amped up.  Think about your students.  Do you give them stickers every time, do you give them stickers to entice them to work, etc?

[Carol Brand]

What is the consequence for non compliance?   Is he given a correction?   As far as running away from the vest, can you leash him up before you put it on?

[Holly Paterniti]

I have not been putting on his Euro leash, but I think that is what I am going to be doing from now on

[Kyoko]

May be he is not interested in the treat because he just ate his food?  What do you think about training before his meal time? I use Charlie's kibble ( regular meal  ) for training, instead of feeding her from the bowl. She is literally working for her food!