Growling - when is it ok?

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Rip and I just returned from the first annual vet check (he is 14 months) and Dr Marc asked how he behaves with the kids. I casually mentioned that my 13 yr old (special needs) will sometimes bother Rip when he (Rip) is tired. Rippley will occasionally emit a small growl or walk away. He has never, ever snapped. My son is a sensory seeker and not always does Rip want all this (well intentioned) pets and pats and abrupt, sometimes loud touching - so I thought a warning growl was a good thing and I would try to remove my son from the situation post-growl. But, Dr. Marc said he would discipline the growl and that it shouldn't happen. I asked what exactly he would do. He basically described how to teach Rip "place" as a way to immediately separate the two. I'm not sure that's exactly discipline, but it is smartly putting safety first, and I totally get it - but I still blame my son more than the poor dog ;).
I totally trust Rip because he never guards, will let everyone take balls or toys away nicely, has been so super sweet always... but perhaps it is endangering Rip to trust him so much? Has anyone had/solved this issue? TIA!

[Robin & Josie]

It have been told that growling serves as a "warning", and that training a dog not to growl is asking for trouble. I find that Josie usually growls at people she considers "suspicious". Sometimes I really trust her instincts. Other times, it makes no sense to me, but it does to her, I guess. I feel bad when she does it to someone who just innocently wants to interact with her, but I can't prevent it and usually just move her away from the person (or dog) as politely as possible, explaining that she's having a bad day :)

Probably good advice to separate him from your son when he growls, and explain to him that sometimes Rip needs to have his own space. Does your son ever feel like he needs a little separation from too much sensory input? I know you said he is a "sensory seeker", but a lot of kids also like to have some space/time to themselves. Maybe he can understand it that way and give Rip a break when he makes it clear (by growling) that he needs that at that moment.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

With all due respect to you vet, who is probably not a behavioral specialist (that requires another few years of vet school, lol), I disagree with disciplining the growl in this situation. (If he growled at you when you tried to take something from him, that's a whole other ball game.) I agree with Robin, I've also been told that a growl is a warning, and that if you take that away, some dogs will go straight to snapping or biting. 

I also agree with trying to help your son understand that Rip needs his space, just like we all do, especially when we are tired or resting, and trying to set limits about how and when he can approach Rippley. 

From what you've said here, Rippley sounds like a very sweet, well-balanced, tolerant dog who does deserve to occasionally protest when he doesn't want to be bothered, lol.

I really think all dogs need to have a "safe place" in their homes where it is understood by everyone that when the dog is there, he's to be left alone. In the past, my dogs had their crates out for their entire lives, door left open, and they used it as an indoor dog house; they seemed to know that they could nap in there without worrying about being stepped on or bothered, or chew a bone in there. A safe place could also be a dog bed, a rug, or anything really, as long as it's out of the line of traffic and everyone in the family understands that when the dog is there, he's to be left alone. That would also be somewhat in keeping with your vet's advice about "place". 

[Susan and Bentley]

I agree with both Robin and Karen.  I was taught by my trainers, who I love, that taking away the growl - which is a warning of being uncomfortable, etc is not a good thing.  Taking away the growl/warning leads directly to a snap or a bite.  Rip is doing the right thing, and it sounds like you are also. You can read Rip's body language and know when he needs a break.  Keep up the good work - Rip sounds like a sweetie pie!

[Gwyndolyn Morasko]

It is extremely rare that either of my dogs growl, so I pay pretty close attention when they do.  Kona (my double doodle) is a little too trusting and doesn't even growl at bad people, so I'm actually glad that at least one of mine has a little growl in her to warn me of bad people.  They both will bark at a new person at my door that they don't know (they are COMPLETELY silent when people they know and trust show up....they are happy all wiggle butt and ready to play, but no barking at all.), but only Maggie (my herding Briard Sheepdog mix) gives me warning growls against distrustful people, and she has been dead on with each time she's done it. Bad, dishonest contractor. Dishonest repair person. Angry people who don't like dogs. Creepy stalker in the park. She wanted me to take note of those people as a warning.  So I would say not to remove the growl, but to help both of them learn appropriate separation and appropriate signs for affection.

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Thank you Robin, Karen, and Susan for the helpful info and support!! Your responses do validate my "mother's instinct" to not penalize a growl. Rip IS a total sweetheart, and I suppose I just have to try harder with my also sweet, but annoying, son. I really, really need a doodlekisses for special needs kids, lol! ;)
Actually, what doc suggested isn't really what I'd consider "discipline" or "taking away a growl" - it is just a different response to it, right? The problem is that most often Rip rests nearby where I am (can't see him wanting solitude in exchange for peace and quiet, unlike me...) and then son comes in to pet/disturb. I can move son instead of dog immediately post-growl (versus what doc suggested, command dog to " place") but does that give Rippley more "power" in the situation? Does moving my son away "reward" his growl?
I definitely will try to prevent the whole scenario as able, but still wondering whom to move post-growl. Maybe both!?!

[Susan and Bentley]

I do not think it's a reward if you move post growl.  Obviously, it would be best to move your son before the growl but again, he's just communicating he's had enough so moving after the growl is not a reward.  Does that make sense?  Bentley is very, very affectionate and loves to sit on our laps and lay on us, but at the same time, there are instances when he's not in the mood and will give a low growl if he wants to be left alone, and then we do.  If he could talk he'd just say, I'm not in the mood right now!

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Yes, I totally think this growl means him saying, "Stop, I'm not in the mood..."

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I would move the dog....I'd hate for this to reinforce the growling behavior...."wow I got just what I wanted by growling, maybe I need to do that more often".

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Jane, this is exactly it. A very important point to consider! Maybe that was why doc wanted me to move the dog, not the child? Hmm.... Then again, it doesn't seem fair to make a tired dog move.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Oh it's totally fair.....

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I always do verbally correct Murphy when he growls and remove him from whatever situation he's in.  It very rarely happens anymore, but it used to.  The only time I permit a growl without a verbal correction and redirection is when it is because he's hearing a noise outside.  Growling at any member of our family is not okay with me and he knows that now.  I think giving him an alternate response (like "place") is a great idea.  I would work with your son and Rip using a desensitization exercise.  We did this with our grandkids and it taught them how to interact with Murphy appropriately while teaching Murph to be okay with the moving and touching....there were lots and lots of treats involved.  I know there two very different schools of thought on this, but I wanted to share what has worked for us. 

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Thanks for this information, Jane! It really gives me a lot to think about.