Mindset Question

[LG & Sadie]

Everyone who knows me, maybe even those who don't- figure out pretty quickly that I can be what I might cringe and call "sweet". The truth is I am not all that sweet- but in having endured some circumstances most folks don't endure I was given some gifts; one of which is an enormous amount of empathy. It is almost a fault. I pick up on shifts-even slight shifts in mood, affect, body language etc. in my fellow human beings. The reason I mention this first is; I have a new family member who is very clear (and vocal) about the approach Caesar uses in working with their dog (a Rottweiller mix) and very vocal about my inability to use this approach with Sadie. I read the book by Tamara Gellar "The loved dog" and liked that approach best. No surprises there. I say whatever works for your individual dog-and your goals for your dog. Right? But, I have this lingering question. Sometimes when we are all gathered. She might use the "Out" command for the dog. She yells this command as a room of guests 8-10 of us, unprepared for her to yell ready themselves to sit at a dinner table. The dog then sort of hangs his head, follows the command in leaving the room and heads for his bed. My lingering question is-she calls this dog her family member just as I call Sadie mine. But, I couldn't imagine yelling at any of my family members to leave a room in such a way.  All of us seating ourselves get uncomfortable-not just me, it takes the joy out of the room for at least a few seconds/minutes. Am I just naive? Is this part of the mindset?  I feel bad for the dog, but I am thinking I should not, right?  Do I need to educate myself more on the approach if I am going to have to spend major holidays witnessing it? Please, also, if this is in any way offensive to anyone using either approach kindly would you tell me why? THANKS! I feel a little like I am writing to Dear Abby. (I might be giving away age with that...)

[LG & Sadie]

Good point-the few times I have seen the show I never saw him raise his voice. I have nothing against his approach. I just didn't feel it fit for Sadie. The few times I saw his show-it seemed he worked near miracles with some very difficult situations. Sadly, this wasn't the first time this has happened. This is an person and dog are family addittions (wonderful ones) but this happens EVERY single time we all gather. Whenever the dog isn't lying on his bed. The dog isn't abused, but somewhat has been hate to say this but for lack of a better word replaced-by little ones of the human kind (also wonderful ones). It is just awful for those of us who feel for the dog, and yet feel we are not in a position to intervene. I have done things like asked, "could I bring him a treat"? but those type of things are not desired behavior on my part. The other very odd piece is, this is not the style with the little ones at all. Thankfully. But, I worry the little ones might learn this kind of thing-and/or misinterpret it like I have? Oh-and no, the dog was just sort of under foot not doing anything wrong that I could tell-maybe she has particular rules the rest of us are unaware of?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It's just as easy to say to a dog, quietly and calmly, "Go to your place" as it is to yell "OUT!" Also to call a dog to another area and give him the down/stay command. These are both ways to remove the dog from the eating area while not causing anyone discomfort, lol. If her dog is as well-trained as she claims, and her training method so superb, there would be no need to yell anything.

[Adina P]

Agreed. Regardless of how you feel about Caesar...he really doesn't yell and she'd not have to either if she really had verbal command of her dog. I don't think the dog is hanging its head because of the same kind of hurt feeling a human family member would have. It might have responded that way anyway just because it preferred to be where the people and food were and might just be sulking "okay...fine..if I HAVE too... boo" and at the same time it assumed it was being reprimanded.

All of us have probably gotten fed up with someone or some dog and yelled something...but that seems like an odd initial approach to tell a dog to leave the room. Sometimes Rosco will be hovering where he shouldn't while Clark and I are in the kitchen and if the first few attempts to get him out of the kitchen don't work...I may get LOUDer. I don't want him in a down stay somewhere I can't see him...I don't want to shut the kitchen gate because I'm walking in and out...I just want him out from underfoot so I don't trip or whatever.

I can imagine it was awkward...but I would have sloughed it off. Sounds like the dog preferred to be with her anyway so I don't think she's traumatized or anything.

I don't think whatever she did was representative of CM's 'approach' or anything except HER approach. So I'm not sure there is some 'mindset' that you're missing. I think she just thinks that you have to be EXTRA SUPER FIRM and MAKE dogs do what you want them to do (sans training) and to her that apparently means always saying things in a yelling or at least very loud voice. I don't want obedience because the dog is intimidated by me or only when I'm fed up and raise my voice. I want obedience because either I'm lucky and have a dog that worships me or because I've actually trained it to respond to words and phrases said in a normal tone of voice.

[LG & Sadie]

I think awkward is the best way to describe it, and you bring up that point I need to be reminded of on a daily basis! That the feelings brought up are not the same kind of hurt feelings a human family member would feel if she yelled out at them....but, sometimes it is hard to believe what I read about that because-how exactly does anyone know? Oh gosh-I better not go down that path!
She uses some of CM's sounds as I recall the szzzzt kind of sound-which the dog responds well too, but no hand signals, nor anything I see nonverbal. Her verbal commands are in my opinion often in frustration or frenzy-but with babies-who knows how stressed and or busy and or how much sleep etc. is happening. This did however happen prior to baby #1 more often than it happens now because the dog has mellowed considerably. The dog is 135 lbs, and this gal very petite. I know after back surgery I was terrified when I had to handle Sadie before I felt physically ready just in case something wildly unplanned went wrong w another dog, cat, squirrel, ground hog, bunny, or ball. Sadie is only 80lbs and I am not what I would call petite....just kind of average.

[LG & Sadie]

Yes exactly! I didn't think the yell was necessary-that's it, it isn't the command so much as the volume. Thanks Karen~

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

That would make me uncomfortable. Why wouldn't she just put the dog in another area or his "room" while you eat. I don't get people.

Peri is not well-trained probably according to our experts here on DK. But she is pretty good with a down-stay while we are eating. Not perfect, but not bad. Peri doesn't respond to negative energy as you described anyway.

[LG & Sadie]

Sadie doesn't do well with much negative either. Just one firm "no" and she gets the message and wants to make whatever it is right quickly. Her desire to please is incredible-more so than her desire for a treat. Too much negative, and she crawls under a bed. That's what she does when this family member visits our place in CT. Isn't that sad? She takes several of her favorite toys, and positions them just so-then she hides under a bed. She visits periodically, then retreats to her fort. We call it her fort. It's like her little safe spot. Sadie weighs 80 lbs, she is a big girl to be crawling under a bed-but she does it.

[BG and Gavin]

It's kind of like getting a dog to comply because you are dominating him versus getting him to comply because he wants to please you. Same result, but they look very different. Karen posted in another spot about JD doing really well on a walk and responding with extra pep in his step because he knew he was doing a good job and pleasing her. That is my ideal picture of an obedient dog - a win/win situation where everyone feels good. "Go to your bed" when said to Gavin brings him briskly walking toward it, tail wagging and lying straight down because he knows something good is going to follow. That makes me feel good. Not saying that sometimes, when he is not listening, I have to get a little tougher with him; but the first scenario is always the goal.

[LG & Sadie]

Yes, exactly, my spouse uses the word "Dominatrix"....not nice, I know. I do understand at times we need to be more firm, raise our voice etc. or at times we are mad-but this seems too often but I know the dog is loved and cared for....I am glad to know it isn't just me.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I can clearly understand your discomfort. That said, if you have never seen her be abusive to her dog, this may just be her "style". It would certainly not be mine, but that may just be the way she relates to her dog. Other than this example, does she seem to have a solid relationship with the dog?

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I should add that I had a good friend growing up who had a Mom who always seemed to be "barking orders" and had no idea what an "inside voice" meant...with her kids. It used to scare me to death, but to my friend it was just normal. Her Mom was equally "enthusiastic" with the way she loved her daughters...lots of very demonstrative affection in that house. To me then it was always bizarre, but I still remember it. My friend was completely happy and well adjusted. I just wonder if this is something like that. I have no idea, but is it a possibility?

[LG & Sadie]

I think maybe to some degree Jane...maybe that's just how she speaks to animals? Not sure-this isn't a one time thing. The dog isn't being abused-is clearly loved, cared for, etc. but she yells commands-I asked-he has no hearing deficit. I thought my asking might bring up a discussion-no luck. I remember some of those type of houses as well and actually being warned beforehand-"be careful they might kiss and hug you and spread all kinds of germs". Imagine? Funny the things we remember. Her relationship with the dog is different than what I would want with my dog-but she is a provider? Does that sound okay? Non-demonstrative provider pretty much.....I think animals are animals, and there is a clear distinction or boundary-much clearer than say-the one I have with my girl Sadie. But, different strokes for different folks I guess.