Non-Food Training Rewards?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Jackdoodle is not food motivated. I have yet to find any kind of treat that consistently excites him. He really couldn't care less if he gets a treat or not, most of the time. Even the really expensive liver treats don't do it for him. (Of course, if I could carry fresh broiled salmon or roast beef around with me, that might work, but obviously it isn't practical.)

This makes it hard to motivate him, get his attention, or reward him for correct responses in training.

For other owners of non-food motivated dogs, have you found effective ways of motivating/rewarding your dogs during training? Ideas, anyone?

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

I have heard of a few ideas to use with non-food motivated dogs. Primarily the idea is to find out what DOES motivate JD? Is it a pat on the head or rubbing his ears or kisses? Perhaps a toy or a squeaker or being highly praised? Also some people just use their dog's daily ration of food (or part of if) for training rather than feeding their dog a meal. I think you know we use Origen kibble for Tara's training reward. Does he enjoy eating his meals? If so perhaps you could try something along those lines.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

He enjoys eating his food sometimes. Other times it sits there.
Tennis balls are his thing, but he cannot chase a tennis ball on leash. So far, praise and attention are the only practical rewards when we are working away from home. And even at home, I'm not going to play ball at 11 pm, or spend ten minutes tossing him a ball for every down-stay he holds for two minutes, lol.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

He isn't interested in just holding the ball in his mouth. He doesn't like holding anything in his mouth.
He is only interested in serious, competition-level fetching.
For that matter, he is so strange and quirky that he is particular about whiat tennis balls he will retrieve. As badly as he wants to play, he will refuse to play with certain ones. I often have to offer him three or four balls before he chooses one. Otherwise he stands and stares at me, sniffs the available balls, and just stands there waiting for soemthing acceptable. He favors Penn brand.
This is a strange dog. His issues are unlike any other.

[BG and Gavin]

Sounds like JD has quite a "racquet" going here! Get it? Tennis ball...racquet? Sorry, I need more sleep :)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Hey, I appreciate the levity!

[BG and Gavin]

If I need true, true focus from Gavin, I show him a tennis ball. He is not a big foody either, so I will be following this discussion with interest. I have seen police dogs being trained and it seems they always use a tug toy - game of tug as the reward. They only use that certain tug toy during training and then it disappears.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yep, I am thinking of the tennis ball on a rope that they use with the police K9s. JD was not interested in the one I showed him in the pet supply, store, though. And he doesn't play with toys.

[Adina P]

Are other ends of the motivational spectrum ruled out (aversives, corrections, consequences, reasons to NOT disobey)?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

No, but I also want something to reward him with. I would much rather have him obey in order to get a reward than to obey because he's avoiding a punishment. Even though, to be honest, with past dogs, the aversion training worked better for me in the long run than reward-based training did. But here we're going to run up against "I cannot do anything that will make this dog feel bad or scared" because he has my heart wrapped around his big dumb paw. The thought of giving him a correction actually makes me tear up. Challenges, isn't that the name of this group?

[Adina P]

Corrections don't have to make a dog feel bad or scared if they are done fairly and appropriately--if the dog is sufficiently prepared for them and knows how to get out of getting them. If he knows what to expect and knows how to avoid the correction then he can make an educated choice in the matter and decide for himself what he'd like.

I KNOW this is 'challenging' for you and that's what this group is for. And I know that some people will never feel comfortable with corrections. But you said "Even though, to be honest, with past dogs, the aversion training worked better for me in the long run than reward-based training did."
Does JD really need special handling?

I will NOT prescribe any sort of correction for you/him. I don't think it's as simple as just suddenly surprising him with corrections out of the blue. But if it were me (and please know I take NO offense that you feel differently or may not do what I would do) I would start from scratch with his training with a trainer/class that offered balanced training and made him just as accountable for his choices as you have made your past dogs. I think he would do well with that sort of black/white view of the world. I do X on command and I get this reward. I do something else when X is commanded and I get this consequence.

The way this would fail him though, is if you were inconsistent with your corrections. IF sometimes you let him get away with it and other times you did not ... then when you did correct him it would be wholly unfair and confusing.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Here's the thing. Somebody did some kind of training with this dog before I got him, and they put the fear of the Almighty in him. I know it isn't helpful to focus on the past, but I think this part of it does have some bearing on how I have to approach him.
No 14 month old puppy mill bred labradoodle was just born knowing what "leave it", "drop it", and "wait" mean. Somebody partially trained him. They never trained him on a leash, and they didn't seem to ever have even taken him outdoors, but he was housebroken within an inch of his life. About a year after I got him, he was put on too high a dose of prednisone for a bad flare, and he had an accident just inside the backdoor. The only time ever. And he hid from me. Now, you know I didn't say a word or do a thing to this dog because he urinated inside the door while on prednisone. But he was terrified. And this was after a year here. (We have made great strides. He will now walk into the kitchen without flinching if i am holding a cucumber, lol) Point being, there were definitely aversion methods used with this dog, and he ended up an extremely introverted, frightened dog. It took me a long time and a lot of work to turn that around. He is not afraid of me, ever. We have a really strong bond. I would rather have him the way he is now than screw that up.
The dogs I trained in the past were normal dogs whose histories were known to me almost from the moment they opened their eyes. They needed training, correction, discipline. I went through the obnoxious stages with them and had no pity when they yelped from a leash correction; and this was back when they taught helicoptering in beginning obedience classes at park districts. (To my girls at the Rainbow Bridge, forgive me. But you did turn out to be some pretty awesome dogs in spite of my ignorance.)
But Jack almost never does anything bad. He has never evoked those feelings of "I'm going to kill this dog" in me; frustration, yes. But mostly pity and a very deep desire to make him undertsand that he can trust me always, no matter what.
So I am open to using aversion based methods with him, but not without someone who really knows what they're doing, and who can demonstrate that to me, guiding me every step iof the way.
I am pretty sure that if you came and took Jack to a CDC evaluation, he would pass it today. Or at least, next week. he would probably hold a stay with you and not be anxious that you were walking away from him. He would also not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he had a sucker at the other end of the leash and could probably get away with anything. I went too far the other way with him. I know I am not helping him reach his potential.

[Adina P]

All we can do is speculate about 'how' he was trained. Not all training with corrections is created equal. I think It's totally okay to be happy with his current level of obedience and not want to change anything. But if you do...then it might take something beyond just rewards. Maybe not, but that's my opinion. I don't believe working in completely stress-free environment without consequences is very helpful for a dog expected to obey in real life. Life is stressful and sometimes a dog is confronted with a stressful situation and still must obey.

An example that comes to mind is an obedience trial involving a Yorkie (story from a trainer I know). This Yorkie was a rescue supposed to be dog aggressive, not good with kids and had to go to a home without other dogs. This Yorkie is now completely off leash trained. At a recent obedience trial she was in the middle of the line up of dogs in the group sit stay. To her left was a Dobie then an American Staffordshire and Newfie. To her right was a Sheltie, then Black Russian, then Giant Schnauzer. The AmStaff broke his stay and approached straight for the York. The York did not indulge him and so he moved on and ended up challenging the Schnauzer at the end of the line and the owners had to really muscle them apart. The Sheltie was visibly nervous. This little Yorkie who was called 'special needs' before being adopted and trained held her sit stay without difficulty. This was a dog that could have been coddled and treated very differently because of the labels given her. She was not. She was given the same rules and consequences as any other dogs and has flourished.

Jack CAN learn to hold stay with you out of sight. He absolutely can. You just have to believe it. So CGC next year! It's coming! :-)