Obedience Classes?

[Kim]

I really want to train Allie.  I bought 4 Patricia McConnell books.  I like them so far and the things that we have already been doing are seeming to work very easily... it's as if Allie already knew what we wanted! 

We did attend a puppy socialization class 2 years ago and then we started Obedience class but I was a quitter.  I want to try it at a different place.  The thing I did 't like about the Obedience class that we went to was that as we were teaching "heel," Allie didn't want anything to do with it.  She was a VERY big fan of pulling on leash.  The instructor put a choke chain on and Allie screamed and cried with it on.  I don't know if it was really hurting her or if she was being dramatic.  Every time we went to class they got the choke chain out for Allie.  It was as if she was being tortured the way she was screaming.  Some of the obedience classes around here require you to purchase a choke chain.  I don't know if I can put her through that again.  We us a Harness for our walks with Allie and that works perfectly, until we take it off!  She is still a puller.  The only time we don't use it is on our trail hikes... we put her on a flexi leash for that because I feel like that kind of walking should be fun for her.

So, I'm wondering - if I'm following these training books that I'm reading and it's working, will I totally confuse her in taking her to Obedience class?  Should it be one OR the other, or can I do both?  I feel like I would need to do both because honestly I have no idea how to stop Allie from pulling on leash.  The books are doing nothing for me in that department.  What is the consensus on choke chains?  Should I call around and basically interview the Obedience Instructors to see what methods they use? 

I'm new to this but am confident that Allie wants to learn.  She is doing so well already with the training that we have already started.  My confidence in myself is not anywhere near my confidence in her!  But... I am determined.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I think this is really a question about what training approach is best for Allie, and I can share my experience in arriving at a training plan for each of my Doodles. I'm sure Adina will have some great input on this question, and she's much more experienced at this than I am. Let's start with Guinness. He's small, pretty sweet and easy-going, loves "working" because he's an "attention hound" and he perceives training as attention, very treat and praise motivated, and generally a "soft dog". I used a very positive training approach for him using markers, then treats and praise. He rarely got a correction, and if he did it was just a "tug" on his flat collar with the leash. This approach was perfect for him, and he trained very quickly and was able to pass his TDI before he was 18 mos. Sounds easy, right....it was. So, of course, I became a huge fan of positive training methods....why not, it worked so well. Okay, now let's talk about Murphy. He is a completely different dog. I've been pursuing basically the same method I used for Guinness with completely different results. Murphy is strong willed, stubborn, incredibly strong (and not afraid to use that strength), likes treats and praise but they are not effective motivators for him, and he's smart and can manipulate with the best of them. So I had been training him on a flat collar using lots of treats and praise, and he thinks this is a fun game so he does real well around the house (because there's nothing "better" for him at the time). Fast forward to trips out of the house...grandkids' games, walks around the neighborhood or in the Park. Well here there things that are WAY BETTER than Mom's praise or treats....there are kids, soccer balls, other dogs, blowing leaves, squirrels. That's when all the "training" goes right down the tubes, and he is basically uncontrollable. In the past month I've learned that I cannot hold him when there's something he wants, and my DH can barely hold on either. So, we knew we needed a completely different approach, or poor Murph would have "no life". I wouldn't be able to take him anywhere, because I just can't manage him. That's when we decided that we needed a whole new approach to training. That's also about the same time I got over feeling sorry for him. So, we have been using the Command Performance system (the method Adina uses for her dogs) for the last six days. It does involve a training collar and it does include corrections. I'm not going to say a whole lot about it right now because were only one week in. I will certainly post a lot more when we're farther along. I will say that on the first day we had a near disaster with Murph geting into his "crazy place" when he saw a jogger....it was very frightening to me. If he had not had the training collar on, I would not have been able to hold onto him and he would have definitely gone after this jogger. He would not have bitten, but he would have jumped all over her and scared her (and me) to death. After six days I'm seeing some very promising results with him. Yesterday when we were working, a soccer team of High School boys jogged right past us (within 20 ft) and Murph did not respond at all. I now have confidence that he will be a trained, well behaved Doodle who we will be able to take anywhere. Would I have used this method for Guinness....absolutely not. With Murphy I really believe it's the best approach. I'm using the DVD and Adina has been an amazing resource to me (and Murph) as we go down this path. Your question is a great one, and I truly believe it's all about finding what's right for your individual dog.
Now back to Allie. I really don't think that she was crying because the training collar was hurting her. It's more likely that she was crying because she was getting a correction when she pulled on the leash....she wasn't getting what she wanted. If the approach you're following from your obedience books differs from the approach that is being taught in the class, that would be confusing. I'd say you should pick your method and stick with that in your reading and your classes. As for your confidence, I think that will come once you land on the approach you want to use and then begin to see successes. Believe me, I had lost a lot of my confidence when I started encountering the problems with Murphy, but it's only because I didn't have the right program FOR HIM. Great question, and I'm sorry for this long winded response.

[Kim]

Thank you, Jane for this response. I believe that Allie is somewhere in the middle of Guinness & Murphy. I know that when we are walking with the harness, Allie can't jump on the jogger across the street... BUT given the chance she would without question. I will bring lots of treats for our next walk and try without the harness to see what she will do when a neighbor goes by! She is extremely motivated by treats.

I'm not sure what to do about the obedience training. The next sign ups aren't until December, so I have a month to see how my training is doing!

I'm so happy to hear that you have found a method that is working for Muphy!!! Can't wait to hear the end results!!!!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

You're very welcome, Kim. I'm really interested to see how this discussion unfolds. Finding the right training approach for our individual dogs is HUGE. I have also learned that I probably can take Guinness's training a lot further too. He behaves really well on lead, but I haven't done much to make him reliable off lead. That's my next step....once I get Murph to where he needs to be.

[Adina P]

If you want 'all positive' training, remember then, that your 'leash and collar' are only there to keep the dog safe and you don't really use the leash and collar to guide your dog...only to keep it safely contained.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Hmmm....really good point. With a dog as little as Guinness, ti's easy to fall into that trap which does nothing toward making him reliable off leash.

[LG & Sadie]

I look forward to reading the replies-I have similar questions in regard to Sadie. And have been learning a lot through this group. I am so glad you posted this discussion! Thank you!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm very far from an expert on this, but the one thing I do feel confident about is that you should get rid of the "flexi lead" if that's a retractable. That will work against everything else you are trying to teach her. In my area, we have sections of the forest preseves that are designated dog exercise areas and you can hike the trails with dogs offleash. Maybe you could find a place like that for the fun walks.

[Kim]

yes, we could take her off leash to this park where we hike on trails, but she is definitely not trained to where she would come back to us with the distractions (squirrels especially). There are no sectioned off areas, or enclosed areas for this. I guess this is a good time to start this training as the hiking trails are too muddy to walk on for the rest of the next 2 seasons! I just set a goal. Thanks!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Maybe you could try just attaching a long (20-30 feet) lead to her collar so you can grab her if she tries to take off. It's really easy to just step on it in an emergency, lol.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I totally agree on the retractable leads. My trainers were very much against using them for any type of walk. I know that one thing I learned from Adina is that if you're going to be really serious about teaching "heel", you probably won't be able to do the "fun walks" at the same time, because it just confuses the dog. Because we're focused on learning heel, Murphy no longer gets his "fun walks"....we just take him to his potty spot. Because I am training every day though, he's still getting exercise, and we are also taking him to an enclosed area to run free.

[Adina P]

I have a lot of opinion on this, but it is, again, just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth. Some various thoughts:

1) I think Allie was being a wee dramatic. Choke chains don't hurt to wear. And if she was pulling on it then she was making herself uncomfortable, unable to get where she wanted to go as comfortably, and probably was just unsure about what the heck was going on.

2) Remember that tools (choke chains, prongs, harnesses, clickers, treats, etc) are just tools. What a trainer uses for a tool says VERY little about whether that trainer is a good and effective trainer or not. So you can't judge a trainer OR a training method by the tool implemented. I've seen some awful training on a choke chain and I've seen excellent training on a choke chain. The worst was this woman who volunteered for our local kennel club. She had supposedly won titles on dogs in the long ago past, but I couldn't figure out how she ever taught her dogs anything except through sheer determination. She would have her brand new students (dogs who knew nothing) put choke chains on their dogs, and then proceed to 'heel' them in SMALL squares (10-20 feet) or back and forth in a line simply by saying 'heel' and then pulling them along with their 6 foot leash. Constant tension on the leash, just yanking them along, no praise until the VERY END of class: yay we're all done! I just cringed because there was never a time during this lesson the dogs had a clue or a way to figure out what the handler wanted from them. None of the dogs were 'hurt' in this process, but it wasn't very fair and none of the dogs really learned anything in the end. This is NOT how all trainers use the choke chain, which is JUST a tool in a toolbox. You don't screw in a light bulb with a steak knife, and you don't butter your toast with a screwdriver. But in and of themselves each tool can be used properly and effectively.

3) Patricia McConnell has a strong bias against methods that use aversives (things that dogs don't find pleasant, including collar corrections). Her philosophy is very 'positive reward' and really isn't a fan of anything a dog might perceive negatively. I've read Culture Clash and skimmed The Other End of the Leash. You won't find support in her writings for choke chains. So I do think that if you believe in her philosophy you need to find a class where the trainer does too. Or be open to other ideas.

5) Which of her books are you using, presently, for training? I know she has written a bunch, but I don't remember, a specific training book that gives you 'how-to's' very well. But I don't know ALL her books so she may have one.

6) When you say the training you're already doing with Allie is 'working' what do you mean? Can you clarify? Do you mean she's learning commands well or that the stuff she's learned is very reliable or something else?

7) I think obedience classes are a wonderful thing. Ask around and find someone you are confident in. Even the best, most effective obedience class/method/trainer won't work if you don't follow along and do the homework. So find something you believe in because you are MUCH more likely to follow through. If you strongly believe in 'positive' then find a clicker trainer or other positive trainer that has accomplished a lot with his/her dogs. Obedience titles preferably because then they know more about getting a high level of obedience. Search your zip code on http://apdt.com/ and on http://www.dogpro.org/ -- the first link (APDT) tends to be all or mostly 'positive' trainers. The second is a mixed bag.

7) Think about what your goal is for Allie. WHY do you want to train her? What are the results you want? Talk to the trainers about this and what their philosophies are, what tools they use and WHY, and what they can offer you and Allie. See if you can attend an advanced class in their program to see what the dogs are doing and how it looks to you.

Good luck!

[Kim]

I believe that Allie was being dramatic as well. I guess it hurt my feelings more than anything. The whole 4 classes confused me. The instructor of the class let me pull Allie around in circles the way you are describing of the Instructor you witnessed. I'm not saying my instructor is an idiot or anything because she's not. She obviously knows what she is doing - she has many titles under her belt as well. She didn't teach me how to use the choke chain so when I was using it - it was totally ineffective. It didn't do to Allie what she did. When I did use it - she pulled just as much as she would pull without it even on. Apparently I don't use it right. Allie is my first dog ever (never had a dog growing up) and I was very clueless when we got her. I didn't understand the lessons we were learning. I was there for fun and socialization.

Right now I am reading Family Friendly Dog Training: A Six Week Program for You and Your Dog by Patricia McConnell, and the sits, stays, and come are working wonderfully inside without distraction. When we try outside, she is good at this point. Not great. The treating and praising are working great. She is very treat motivated - so she never knows when we are going to treat her or praise her - so that she doesn't become dependent on the treats alone. She is doing well with visual commands and voice commands. She could always sit, stay, and come - but it's perfected now (without distraction at this point). I have also read "How to be the Leader of the Pack and have your dog love you for it." which makes sense to me.

Thank you for the links, I didn't realize how many trainers were in my area. I'm not totally against the corrections - but I need to find someone who will show ME how to do it. I guess I need someone to hold my hand so that I learn it and can do it when I leave class.