Proper E-Collar Training.

[Ben & Amos Zeeman]

Amos, my F1 Standard Goldendoodle is about 9.5 months old. He is intact, about 60 lbs, and he is starting to really test his limits. Recently we've had a number of close calls, having to induce vomiting, calling animal emergency to ask about potential poisonings a number of times, and not being able to turn around for a second during the holidays not knowing what new food the neighbors brought as gifts that happened to get set on the counter without my knowing it. I even accidentally dropped a pistachio, shell and all, and instanly Amos grabbed it and ran off, swallowing it as fast as he could.

Because I need to nip these behavior problems in the bud before summer volunteer season (I want to get his cgc certified) I decided I needed a way to compell him to drop dangerous things without first seeing what games he can get away with, and because I live right next to the mountains where I want to have him off leash, but under command when I am shooting, or fishing, or anything, I decided to get him an e-collar.

The collar I got is a dogtra 1900ncp. It's a nice high quality collar, with a pager feature, which is great so I don't have to shock him, and because his fur is so silky it seems to shift the collar no matter how tight it is so that it doesn't always contact properly.

I tried to start him out with a pinch collar and long lead, and associate the buzz with the lead. unfortunately, all of the sponsored training videos I watched about these collars seemed to indicate that they were just annoyed by the feeling. The reality of my specific situation is that Amos completely shuts down to commands with just the vibrate. He starts running around, trying to hide, and in no time, he figured out it was the thing in my hand causing him the discomfort. Within 3 training sessions, instead of coming to me to hide from this vibration, he now finds a place to hide from me, even though he knows if he comes to me it will stop. He will only come to me when I put the remote down. It's the curse of the genius dog.

So enough explaining, either I can't use this with him because he just won't respond, or I've done it completely wrong based on corporate e-collar propaganda. I'm worried it's both. Help.

[Adina P]

I think you jumped the gun. Got some suggestions for you. You can also email Lou Castle...he is great about answering ecollar Q's. I can't write now...will write later.

[F, Calla & Luca]

It might help to get a trainer involved, even if only for a few sessions to help yu to use the collar more effectively.

[Adina P]

You've had the collar for less than a week, right?  I think that is, unfortunately, a drastically short amount of time to accomplish what you want to accomplish (which I am guessing includes preventing him from becoming 'collar wise' so that he only obeys when he sees the remote and includes preventing him from making the wrong associations and decisions).

The most I've done with ecollar is to fix counter-surfing in Rosco who only learned this great skill at 5 years of age and only did it when we were not home.  We spent nearly a month just letting him wear the collar...at first only a few days a week and then daily for 2 weeks.  He needed to get used to the collar on his neck and not connect it with anything new in his life.  Since we were never present when we used the remote it wasn't an issue.  However, I've discussed using the ecollar (as an extra layer of recall proofing) with my trainer and in that situation the goal would have been for me to let him see me hold and handle the remote the whole time he was getting used to the collar so it also was 'no big deal' and wasn't an indicator of anything.  You've got to do a killer job of making sure your dog makes little to NO connection between the remote, the collar, you, and the correction.  Unless you want a dog that will only respond when he knows the collar is on and you are holding the remote. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Ben, I think in some ways you're putting the "cart before the horse" here.  You need to first teach Amos exactly what you want him to do....and that takes time, and a method.  Once he learns that you can then use the e-collar for motivation.  I'm not sure exactly what actual training you've done to teach him the expectations.  I strongly encourage you to get yourself a good trainer who will help you through this.  I really worry that Amos must be really confused at this point, and I know you don't want to do something that will negatively influence your bond.....training when done right should enhance the relationship you have with your dog. 

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

Ben, I feel like you need to get a good trainer that trains with an e-collar. In the wrong hands, an e-collar could do far more harm than good, in my opinion.

Also, to find a good setting for your Gracie, fit the collar on nice and snug, turn the dial down to 0, then start hitting the nick as you turn it up. When Gracie's head shakes, or her ears twitch, then leave it there. Amos didn't seem to feel 35, but he did 45.

This setting seems very high to me and I am sure Amos is afraid with that much discomfort. We used an e-collar for a Lab that we had that had resource guarding and many other issues. Even though we had the direction of a highly trained trainer, I never liked using the collar and almost all of the training was done on the lowest setting. I tried it on me and it felt like a tapping. It never made our dog's head shake or ears twitch. Our trainer rescues dogs that are considered un-rescuable by many and trains them mostly with e-collars. Whenever I am around her and her dogs, they seem happy and not afraid in the least.

Within 3 training sessions, instead of coming to me to hide from this vibration, he now finds a place to hide from me, even though he knows if he comes to me it will stop. He will only come to me when I put the remote down. It's the curse of the genius dog.

This concerns me too, because are you saying you issue a continuous shock/vibration until he comes? With our Lab, it was just a tap, tap, tap...nothing continuous EVER. I think that sounds unnecessary. This is my opinion and I hope you can find a good trainer in your area that can help you with Amos.

[Ben & Amos Zeeman]

When I say vibration, I mean vibration, not shock. The vibration is not as pronounced as the vibration on my iPhone. 

As far as shock goes, Amos showed no reaction at all to 35. He goes about his business like I have done nothing.  A setting of 45 on a dogtra collar should be equivalent to a 3.5 on a 10 setting collar.  It is on the low end. On my own hands, I can't feel it till about a 20, at which point it is noticeable because I am expecting it. 

What I am seeking is training tips. I want to do it properly, however I am a student, nearly all extra money already goes toward Amos. I received some money during Christmas to use as a gift for myself, and that is how I was able to pay for the collar. 

Amos also does understand me very well. When I have treats, he is an angel. But if I have to devote time to myself, and Amos decided sleeping is not an option while I'm busy, he starts acting out. Because I do work at home, he seems to think he can demand my attention at all times. 

His biggest problem is that he knows what he's supposed to do, and what he is not supposed to do. He just chooses to do what he is not supposed to do, in order to gain attention at all times.

[Ben & Amos Zeeman]

I guess what I am saying is that I hoped to start a thread that people would offer advice to those who are looking to use it properly, but may not have the money for a trainer.

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

Ben, Adina mentioned above about emailing Lou Castle with e-collar questions. Here is that website:

www.loucastle.com

I hope that helps.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Ben, here's what I have a problem with...."But if I have to devote time to myself, and Amos decided sleeping is not an option while I'm busy, he starts acting out. Because I do work at home, he seems to think he can demand my attention at all times". This may sound simplistic.....but JUST DON'T LET HIM!  You are the boss, not him.  Put this dog in a "down/stay" and MAKE him remain in that position while you work.  If he gets up, don't lose your cool....calmly tell him "NO" and put him right back.  You may have to do it over and over again, but eventually he'll "get it".  The dog does not make the rules...you do.  I really don't think you have to shock him (or "vibrate him").  Just show him what you want him to do....and then calmly make him do it.  If you're really busy, and can't go through the exercise on a particular day, then crate him while you work.  You're letting him win, and as long as you keep doing that you'll be frustrated and he'll be confused.  Believe me, he just wants you to set some rules and then follow through.

[Adina P]

Dog training means either time or money invested. If you don't have money you must be willing to invest time. You have been given resources for training but none of us are ecollar experts. Few have used them for obedience training here. That is why we suggest a trainer. Lou Castle is VERY good about answering questions and giving you some guidance. There are also ecollar training groups on yahoo groups...you might find help there. I've also given you private advice about a good do-it-yourself training and resources for that.

In the meantime do what Jane says. Crate him when you need to work or use that time to ENFORCE his training and correct him if he makes the wrong choice (i.e. Make him down stay). He can't hold a down stay for 2 hrs without building up his endurance for that, though. And a dog who KNOWS what to do byt does NOT is the age old training dilemma. THAT is the point of training...not just teaching him what to do but to help hin WANT to choose that.

[Ben & Amos Zeeman]

I let amos take a few days off the collar and we started back with it. He is doing much better with it now. I've been reading the Lou Castle stuff which I think is going to help a lot. 

I have also been using the vibrate when he starts barking. It is working wonders to quiet him down when he goes outside. I swear he really was just trying to see how many dogs in the neighborhood he could get going.