Training challenges

[Donna Collins]

My goldendoodle just turned one and took her to training class starting at 10 weeks old all the way to advanced classes. She knows basic commands and will do them with minimal distractions. The problem I have is when we are out and there are other people and animals around she will not listen to me at all. I would love to start agility training with her but she must have a reliable recall which we can't seem to master. I'm considering E-coller training and would love to hear your thoughts and opinions. Thanks

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The training classes are a wonderful start, but now you need to do all of your training out in public places around distractions; the other people and animals, and everything else that is going to be going on in the "real world". You don't need an E-collar, and I personally wouldn't use one unless I had no other choice.

I know some of the others here will have wonderful specific tips for you on how to start working on the recall and all of the other commands in public places with distractions. You might also look through past discussions on these topics. 

[Gwyndolyn Morasko]

I am in the same boat with the recall issue.  My pups are so well trained around the house and in a training environment, but my rescue pup is far from trustworthy in an open area.  I still won't let them go offleash in my neighborhood for fear of them throwing their training out the window when I need them to do a recall.  I did a lot of research on e-collars, and did purchase some really nice high end ones used for gun dogs that have 3 different ways to train....vibration, tone, and shock stimulation.  I still haven't tried them yet.  I only hear wonderful and successful things about them from all of my family and friends in Montana who have trained literally dozens of dogs over the years with them.  And none of them have had their personality or spunk or playfulness removed, like a lot of the negative opinions state, so I do know there is a "right" way to use them. They are great house pets as well as gun dogs.  I just haven't had the time to really do it right, and I think they deserve devoted time and space for that kind of training.  I've witnessed it as being amazingly effective, so I do know it can and does work well.  My niece's doodle is 120 pounds and she is 100 pounds with 5 children.  She hired someone to help train her doodle with the e-collar for about 9 weeks over a year ago, and he is amazing, but still funny and spunky and goofy and a big teddy bear with the kids.  She doesn't use the controls on him, but he still follows all of his learned commands a year later.  

There are a lot of people negative about them, and I'm sure that's part of the reason I haven't used mine yet, but I just wanted to let you know that I also know they can be a great tool.  Especially if they are out of your sight and you need to find them.  The gun dog collars are designed so that the tone or vibration or stimulation (whichever you train them to obey) indicates that they need to return home or to their master even if they are 500 yards (even up to a mile for some of them) away.  They definitely have their place.  I got them because I wanted to be able to recall my pups if they got out of my sight at the huge dog beach near my house (over a mile long)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

E-collars are not only not allowed in agility trials, they are not even allowed anywhere on the grounds where trials are being held:

http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/REAGIL.pdf

So if you want to do agility, I really would not even consider using an E-collar at all. 

[Gwyndolyn Morasko]

I can't imagine that they would be allowed on for any sort of formal organized event or certification.  

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

In fact, you can't even take the CGC test with an E-collar. http://www.akc.org/events/cgc/training_testing.cfm

And that's about the most basic training event in existence.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I have tried every collar in existence (including an e-collar) with Murph who had a real problem with dog reactiveness on leash.  He is very strong willed and became "collar wise" quickly with all of them.  We ended up moving to an e-collar after he dragged me several feet after seeing another dog who was barking and pulling to get to Murph.  That was enough to trigger a major reaction in him.  I was was lucky that I only had scrapes and bruises but I knew that I had to do something different after that episode.  So as a last resort I went to the e-collar with the help of a trainer.  Initially it seemed to be helping...the key is to get the timing of the impulse exactly right...at the exact second the dog as going to "disobey" or "react".  The problem we ran into was that Murph got himself into such an over-the-top state that he couldn't even hear my command or feel the sensation of the e-collar.  In order to get any response from him we had to use the "e stimulation" and it had to be pretty high.  He would actually jump but still not stop reacting.  That's when I knew that this was definitely the wrong training choice for Murphy.  It was not effective...and it was just wrong.  I'm not saying it doesn't work for some dogs, but it didn't work for us.  If you can use it on vibrate and that's enough to elicit a change in behavior, I'm all for it.  I think the key really is practice...practice...practice around all kinds of distractions.  Start with them at a distance and then keep moving closer.  What command are you using?  If you are asking her to heel, do that several feet away and praise like crazy when she stays in the position by your side and correct when she starts to get distracted.  How you correct depends on the program you're using.  Some use a collar correction...or you can turn quickly and move in the opposite direction, or you can simply give a stern verbal "no".  What has been your training process with commands?  When she's able to pass a distraction at a distance I would reward using praise or treats or again whatever is part of your overall training program.  Keep getting closer and closer.  Practicing heel around dog parks is a great exercise.  For recall I use a long line....shorten it up at the beginning and then keep practicing with it longer and longer.  Do this around distractions too.  When I work with my trainer we sometimes do this recall practice on the sidelines of the soccer fields.  I'm assuming you get good recall in the house or a fenced yard...that's where it starts.  If not I would make that a priority.  I hope this helps.  My personal feeling is that you can be successful with just about any collar...they are only training tools and they are not "short cuts"...it's all about the practice IMO.

[Adina P]

The purpose of an e-collar is the same as the purpose of a remote control.  It's to access from a distance.  For dog training that might be a remote ability to issue a reminder or a remote ability to issue a correction.  But the key is 'remote' not 'harsher than I can do on my own.'

However, it sounds like your dog has had little experience with working around distractions, especially off-leash.  That is the issue, as I see it. 

I feel myself getting ready to stand on a soap box...lol.  And this is not directed at you.  But I'm baffled that there are classes out there that take a dog from puppy through 'advanced' and don't teach the importance and the how of training a dog to work around distractions with eventual weaning to off-leash work.  Without the ability to work despite distractions, training is just a bunch of parlor tricks...and bad ones at that because as soon as the audience arrives the dog is too distracted to perform.  I think any advanced class that doesn't include "ability to obey around distractions" as one of the main objectives should be re-labeled as 'intermediate' at best.  *sigh*  getting off soap-box.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Adina, can I get on that soap box too???  So many of the classes are focused on training to commands in the training facility...and that's it.  Clearly trainers know that dogs learn contextually....and the only way to really proof the training is to put the dog in all kinds of "real life" situations.  I can tell you that around here that just isn't happening.  The classes are held in training facilities so of course the dog learns to respond appropriately to commands in that environment....and then everyone is happy and they move onto the next level....and then the dog goes out to the soccer game and they are wild and crazy....and everyone is surprised.

[Adina P]

Yes please join me up here! ;-)
But good golly miss molly, WHY are trainers doing this?  They MUST know better.  Otherwise what exactly is better about intermediate and advanced vs. beginners? 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Here's my theory.  They make lots more money when they do a class with 10 - 15 students for an hour....versus one private session.  They can't really take 10 or 15 students/dogs "out" because unless they're really good they can't control the situation.  My trainer does a couple classroom sessions with a small group, and then they start their "pack walks"....4 - 6 dogs & owners in increasingly high distraction areas.  In some cases (like Murph) it takes more that a few of these and sometimes he has to work one-on-one...but there is no "passing" to the next level.  There are only two levels.....the puppy class which is socialization and the adult class which is about obeying commands in a distracted environment.  There are some dogs who have other "issues" around the home...and those he handles with private training sessions.  So, I think they absolutely DO know better....they're just trying to make as much $ as they possibly can.

[Adina P]

I understand that class time is usually a difficult time to practice the distraction stuff.  But that is NOT an awkward time to discuss it, share ways to accomplish it, demonstrate with a class dog, demonstrate with the trainer's trained dog, and emphasize how critical it is (if the student wants obedience) to practice this with various distractions, listing out the types of distractions to use.  It is a critical part of the way I was taught to train.  Within the first week of training distractions are introduced and then reintroduced and reintroduced and planted in key ways from the start. 

Do all dog trainers also offer private lessons?  Honestly I think even with using class time to discuss and teach the use of distractions, a lot of people would still need private help in executing the training correctly.  It' snot like if they spend an hour or two talking about it all dogs are 'cured' of bad behavior.  People would still need assistance.  Your trainer could have talked your ear off about how to use distractions, but you still would have hired him for private training time wouldn't you?  They could still make money because dog training is hard.  What amazes me is that people leave basic, intermediate and even 'advanced' without an understanding of how to actually train a dog. 

I'm curious what the average "Advanced" class looks like or what the class goals are?  I get the impression that they just add 'new' commands or tricks and never actually perfect 'basics'.

*Note: My dogs are currently not really obedient.  But the difference is I *know* exactly why and how to fix it.  I just don't feel like it.  We're all surviving anyway ;-)  But to leave an advanced class without the tools to fix it....

[Gwyndolyn Morasko]

I totally agree with you that the e-collars are for remote recall or correction.  I still see their value and will keep mine until I can find a better time and place to train with them.  But you can only do that if they understand and obey the commands and corrections when they are on leash or near to you before you start with remote distance training.

And I also will join you on your soapbox about training levels.  My pups are considered intermediate or better with trainers and schools, yet I barely give them "decent beginner" title due to the fact they aren't solidly trained in busy, distracting public places.  They have lots of work to do!  I just need to clone myself and expand the time space continuum!  I would LOVE to get Maggie into agility training, but seeing that they are required to have a solid recall first, I'm reluctant to even approach a trainer about it.  I don't want to waste my money.  (But man...the poor girl LOVES to do her own made up obstacle courses and loves to have a job to do.  Kona.....not so much.  He's a bit on the goofy "hang by mom" side when Maggie is running around chasing and fetching and jumping and catching things)