Acceptable Risk

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

The posting of this discussion was provoked by Erica's plea for help with her Kodi. Please see it especially if you have had adverse reactions to vaccines to offer what worked for you. In the meantime it seemed a good time to share my rather opinionated take on vaccines = )

ACCEPTABLE RISK. A very volatile topic with extreme opinions and it is always advised to do your homework and weigh the risk vs the benefit. The business of vaccines is very lucrative and unless you have a rare gem or you insist on being heard this is likely not a topic that your veterinarian will voluntarily bring about. There is abundant information to equip yourself in your own decisions, unfortunately there is just as much bad information as there is good so it is critical to go beyond the first article you find and find consistent and reputable sources. There are some vaccines that are routinely administered when they are of no benefit what so ever. Sometimes they are given past the age they are deemed helpful but more often than not they are given to early to even benefit hence often requiring a 3rd and frequently unnecessary dose.

Please understand that based upon the information I have collected this is only MY *opinion* and at this time it has influenced the vaccination protocol we provide and though it may spark debate or controversy it is only my opinion. Actually come to think of it this topic would be amazing in the debate group.

Personally I keep our puppies late now, they do not go home before 12 weeks and their first vaccine is given between 9-12 weeks. It may not make us popular with those who want their puppy at 8 weeks, veterinarians or even other breeders ~ but in the end we feel good about that and the families who choose us do as well. There are many who are of the feeling that vaccines administered at the customary 6 wk period are not as optimally effective as they may be if they were administered later. The puppies still have some immunity from mom and so do not fully benefit hence requiring a '3rd' vaccine in the series and of course a 3rd office call fee to accompany it. What we do is administer the 1st vaccine at 9-12 weeks, the 2nd 2-4 weeks following for those we retain or still have the pleasure of their companionship and do a titer for the 3rd in the instance of those we will retain as potential breeding dogs. A titer costs more initially than that vaccine but it tests the levels of immunity present to determine if another is needed. On occasion we have done the series of the first 3 doses with rabies and followed with titers after that. What is saved in the long run cannot be measured financially perhaps. Our dogs do get rabies #1 and often the second at 2 years, after that we titer and extend as long as possible. How it can even be considered appropriate for an identical dosage to be administered to a 10 lb. dog vs. a 100 lb. dog has always baffled me.

There are even vaccines to which do not seem to provide any benefit or do not 'prevent' what they immunize for but rather reduce the severity. The security to minimize the reaction is a good thing but one needs to ask themselves if for them the risk outweighs the benefit for their individual situation. Additionally they need to educate themselves as to those that only minimize so that they do not have a false security about their pets vulnerability.

Really I am not an extremist, I just do not happen to agree with cookie cutter medicine for 2 or 4 legged critters and for that matter cookie cutter anything. How can their be an absolute standard when the variables are often different? Ask many questions, get involved and do not assume just because the person standing in front of you went to school that they know more about what is better for you and your dog ~ after all these are the same folks who recommend Science Diet.

Stepping down now ~ but before I go here are some links you may find interesting:

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/RABIES-CHALLENGE-FUND.HTM

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vth/vaccinations.aspx

http://www.dvmvac.com/HotTopic.shtml#bordetella (please note the part that states does not prevent)

http://www.dvmvac.com/HotTopic.shtml#skin

I know I have more, but will look in a bit.

Blessings ~ Dianne

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Absolutely, the "cocktails" are a big part of the problem. There is no question that they overload the immune system.
Since Jack has been under the specialist's care, he gets a 3 year rabies shot and titers for parvo & whatever else used to be in that cocktail shot. He gets intranasal bordatella vaccine at a separate visit, and Heartgard on a day when nothing else is given. Since he also gets his immunotherapy shot every other week, scheduling gets complicated sometimes, but this is the safest route for him.
His specialist told me in no uncertain terms that if he is going to go swimming anywhere other than a private pool, he absolutely should get the lepto vaccine.
I think a lot of people don't go this route because of financial reasons...it does cost a lot more to titer than to get one shot once a year. For me, the priority is Jack's health, but a lot of vets don't even tell their clients that there are other options.

[Adina P]

I am interested in info supporting the idea that cocktails 'overload the immune system' in otherwise healthy dogs. I can't take Jack into consideration as he is a special case and there are a number of things animals with compromised immunity can't/shouldn't do that are fine for the rest. If you have any references I would be interested in reading them.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I am guilty of having followed the specialist's advice w/o doing any research on my own with this one. But I am going to try to find out if there is any supporting info out there. The idea does make sense to me on the surface, as the introduction of vaccines supposedly stimulates antibody production, and it would seem that having to produce a strong antibody response to multiple germs might decrease the strength of the immune system's response to each one; but that's just an educated guess.

[Adina P]

Thanks! I look forward to reading something on it. When I did a google search for "vaccinosis" as Jacquie suggested earlier, I did not find professional veterinary websites. Sort of like searching for 'candida' where pretty much everything that comes up is opinion and 'alternative'...nothing wrong with alternative but I want something with a little more clout.

When reading up on infant vaccinations, that's often the fear promoted that too many vaccinations are too hard on the immune system. BUT there was no data to back up that claim and realistically a baby is exposed to TONS of new assaults on the immune system simply being able to touch the outside world...doesn't seem to be much evidence that vaccines will add such an increased toll that they are worth avoiding. Just thinking about it without data it's easy to see how one could think "poor baby it was just born and we're sticking all these dead/attenuated viruses into it! how can that possibly not be harmful in some way?" Well...there are proven benefits and not too many proven risks on any mass scale. So initial intuition or common sense doesn't always prove true. In my opinion.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

try Google Scholar.....

[Adina P]

Interesting that corona virus is not common after 11-12 weeks.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Honestly?...Today, many vets are put through vet school by companies that manufacture and produce the immunizations as well as pet food companies like Purina.......The vets then turn around and endorse the companies products and philosophies accordingly.....

I trust my vet.....completely......He is a million years old..lol...(only kidding 84 to be exact) and we simply will not allow him to retire!...lol....Besides saving Blakes life...( and on a Sunday when he didn't even have office hours..) he provides me with free or reduced fee care for all of my fosters, is always completely honest with me and presents me with all options, opinions and alternatives......He also lends me veterinary books refers me to resources otherwise not available to the general public and follows up with me personally. The two young vets that are now part of his practice were put through vet school with grants and programs established by Purina .....When I initially questioned them about what to feed a dog with diagnosed IBS, both of them told me to feed Purina Beneful!.....So I do NOT trust them as far as I can throw them!....It was my vet who originally informed me that these companies were supporting vet students and he told me flat out "Be aware....because this is why I cannot in good conscience retire from the field."

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

My vet told me that Bordetella is completely unnecessary unless you have multiple dogs in "kennel" situations or you plan on boarding your dog in which case you administer before you put the dog into that situation.....

[Adina P]

I don't give it...but I think if I visited the dog parks more often I 'might'

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

I've was initially told that it's difficult to contract Bordetella in an "open area".....It thrives in enclosed areas such as animal shelters, kennels etc....but there are new strains of the virus that apparently can be contracted through exposure in open air situations..the vaccine is not effective against these strains anyway so don't let that keep you from the dog park......

[Adina P]

What keeps me away from the dog park is other psycho dogs :-D
I am not setting foot in there while pregnant...one instance of getting knocked down by two great danes and having a super sore neck for days was enough.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

I agree!....Don't put yourself at risk.......The dog park is always crazy....