Labradoodle & Goldendoodle Forum
Acceptable Risk
The posting of this discussion was provoked by Erica's plea for help with her Kodi. Please see it especially if you have had adverse reactions to vaccines to offer what worked for you. In the meantime it seemed a good time to share my rather opinionated take on vaccines = )
ACCEPTABLE RISK. A very volatile topic with extreme opinions and it is always advised to do your homework and weigh the risk vs the benefit. The business of vaccines is very lucrative and unless you have a rare gem or you insist on being heard this is likely not a topic that your veterinarian will voluntarily bring about. There is abundant information to equip yourself in your own decisions, unfortunately there is just as much bad information as there is good so it is critical to go beyond the first article you find and find consistent and reputable sources. There are some vaccines that are routinely administered when they are of no benefit what so ever. Sometimes they are given past the age they are deemed helpful but more often than not they are given to early to even benefit hence often requiring a 3rd and frequently unnecessary dose.
Please understand that based upon the information I have collected this is only MY *opinion* and at this time it has influenced the vaccination protocol we provide and though it may spark debate or controversy it is only my opinion. Actually come to think of it this topic would be amazing in the debate group.
Personally I keep our puppies late now, they do not go home before 12 weeks and their first vaccine is given between 9-12 weeks. It may not make us popular with those who want their puppy at 8 weeks, veterinarians or even other breeders ~ but in the end we feel good about that and the families who choose us do as well. There are many who are of the feeling that vaccines administered at the customary 6 wk period are not as optimally effective as they may be if they were administered later. The puppies still have some immunity from mom and so do not fully benefit hence requiring a '3rd' vaccine in the series and of course a 3rd office call fee to accompany it. What we do is administer the 1st vaccine at 9-12 weeks, the 2nd 2-4 weeks following for those we retain or still have the pleasure of their companionship and do a titer for the 3rd in the instance of those we will retain as potential breeding dogs. A titer costs more initially than that vaccine but it tests the levels of immunity present to determine if another is needed. On occasion we have done the series of the first 3 doses with rabies and followed with titers after that. What is saved in the long run cannot be measured financially perhaps. Our dogs do get rabies #1 and often the second at 2 years, after that we titer and extend as long as possible. How it can even be considered appropriate for an identical dosage to be administered to a 10 lb. dog vs. a 100 lb. dog has always baffled me.
There are even vaccines to which do not seem to provide any benefit or do not 'prevent' what they immunize for but rather reduce the severity. The security to minimize the reaction is a good thing but one needs to ask themselves if for them the risk outweighs the benefit for their individual situation. Additionally they need to educate themselves as to those that only minimize so that they do not have a false security about their pets vulnerability.
Really I am not an extremist, I just do not happen to agree with cookie cutter medicine for 2 or 4 legged critters and for that matter cookie cutter anything. How can their be an absolute standard when the variables are often different? Ask many questions, get involved and do not assume just because the person standing in front of you went to school that they know more about what is better for you and your dog ~ after all these are the same folks who recommend Science Diet.
Stepping down now ~ but before I go here are some links you may find interesting:
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/RABIES-CHALLENGE-FUND.HTM
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vth/vaccinations.aspx
http://www.dvmvac.com/HotTopic.shtml#bordetella (please note the part that states does not prevent)
http://www.dvmvac.com/HotTopic.shtml#skin
I know I have more, but will look in a bit.
Blessings ~ Dianne
ACCEPTABLE RISK. A very volatile topic with extreme opinions and it is always advised to do your homework and weigh the risk vs the benefit. The business of vaccines is very lucrative and unless you have a rare gem or you insist on being heard this is likely not a topic that your veterinarian will voluntarily bring about. There is abundant information to equip yourself in your own decisions, unfortunately there is just as much bad information as there is good so it is critical to go beyond the first article you find and find consistent and reputable sources. There are some vaccines that are routinely administered when they are of no benefit what so ever. Sometimes they are given past the age they are deemed helpful but more often than not they are given to early to even benefit hence often requiring a 3rd and frequently unnecessary dose.
Please understand that based upon the information I have collected this is only MY *opinion* and at this time it has influenced the vaccination protocol we provide and though it may spark debate or controversy it is only my opinion. Actually come to think of it this topic would be amazing in the debate group.
Personally I keep our puppies late now, they do not go home before 12 weeks and their first vaccine is given between 9-12 weeks. It may not make us popular with those who want their puppy at 8 weeks, veterinarians or even other breeders ~ but in the end we feel good about that and the families who choose us do as well. There are many who are of the feeling that vaccines administered at the customary 6 wk period are not as optimally effective as they may be if they were administered later. The puppies still have some immunity from mom and so do not fully benefit hence requiring a '3rd' vaccine in the series and of course a 3rd office call fee to accompany it. What we do is administer the 1st vaccine at 9-12 weeks, the 2nd 2-4 weeks following for those we retain or still have the pleasure of their companionship and do a titer for the 3rd in the instance of those we will retain as potential breeding dogs. A titer costs more initially than that vaccine but it tests the levels of immunity present to determine if another is needed. On occasion we have done the series of the first 3 doses with rabies and followed with titers after that. What is saved in the long run cannot be measured financially perhaps. Our dogs do get rabies #1 and often the second at 2 years, after that we titer and extend as long as possible. How it can even be considered appropriate for an identical dosage to be administered to a 10 lb. dog vs. a 100 lb. dog has always baffled me.
There are even vaccines to which do not seem to provide any benefit or do not 'prevent' what they immunize for but rather reduce the severity. The security to minimize the reaction is a good thing but one needs to ask themselves if for them the risk outweighs the benefit for their individual situation. Additionally they need to educate themselves as to those that only minimize so that they do not have a false security about their pets vulnerability.
Really I am not an extremist, I just do not happen to agree with cookie cutter medicine for 2 or 4 legged critters and for that matter cookie cutter anything. How can their be an absolute standard when the variables are often different? Ask many questions, get involved and do not assume just because the person standing in front of you went to school that they know more about what is better for you and your dog ~ after all these are the same folks who recommend Science Diet.
Stepping down now ~ but before I go here are some links you may find interesting:
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/RABIES-CHALLENGE-FUND.HTM
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vth/vaccinations.aspx
http://www.dvmvac.com/HotTopic.shtml#bordetella (please note the part that states does not prevent)
http://www.dvmvac.com/HotTopic.shtml#skin
I know I have more, but will look in a bit.
Blessings ~ Dianne
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle on
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What about grooming salons?
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Permalink Reply by Jacquie Yorke (DRC) on
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Great point Karen!....I think it's rare for this to happen but I 'm sure there have been instances.....As my groomer explained when I inquired " Most people who have their dogs groomed are responsible pet owners who either vaccinate or wouldn't think of putting a sick dog through the grooming process....I have never had a case of kennel cough in my shop or a complaint that someone's dog contracted it while in my care.."
You see it in shelters, boarding kennels, large scale breeding facilities and even indoor dog parks because the conditions in enclosed areas that are perhaps not as hygenic and/or have poor ventilation along with a constant turnover of animals with questionable histories and compromised immune systems, provide the optimum environment for the virus to spread. Also tracheobronchitis can be transmitted on hands and clothing as well as through the air, so when infected animals are not isolated and handlers don't wear gloves or use proper handwashing this can also spread the virus.....
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Current Veterinary Therapy by Kirk, the textbook bible for veterinarians in general, has an article on canine and feline vaccines by two researchers. Near the end of the article is a paragraph called Annual Vaccinations. It states "The practice of annual vaccinations lacks scientific validity or verification. There is no immunological requirement for annual vaccinations. The practice of annual vaccinations should be considered of questionable efficacy unless it is used as a mechanism to provide an annual physical examination or is required by law."
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BTW-The term for over vaccination of pets is called "Vaccinosis"...If you type that word into a Google search, you will be amazed by the sheer number of articles and information that come up regarding the vaccination cocktail controversy and the effects of vaccinosis on both healthy and auto-immune impaired animals.
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Permalink Reply by F, Calla & Luca on
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I don't think that because companies support veterinary education means that most vets are compromised. Giving me samples of medication does not influence what I prescribe although at times it makes me more aware of what's out there. I think we all have to be wary of what's on the web unless it comes from trustworthy sources. Many anecdotal stories have little to do with the big picture. An example of anecdotal evidence is that 2 out of 2 of my doodles have been vaccinated for just about everything and in "cocktails" and neither had any side effects and they have been KOW (knock on wood) very healthy. Therefore a 100% success rate? not for everyone I'm sure. Unfortunately although the need for annual vaccination is not certain there is not enough evidence about optimal lengths of vaccination intervals. Also, I don't think you need to venture into the wild for lepto. I seem to remember that field mice etc. can carry it. We all have numerous critters passing through our yards. Mine range from turkeys to groudhogs to rabbits etc. and that's inside the fence!
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Dr. Parker ...Are you a veterinarian?...Google says Psychiatrist....In which case you must be having a field day in the forums!....lol
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Google lies.Sorry for any confusion. I am certainly not a veterinarian, though I thought of being one as a kid, nor a plastic surgeon. I am a board certified pathologist and psychiatrist. I presently practice psychiatry part time. I do occasionally get calls for the Dr. P Parker who is a plastic surgeon asking about tummy tucks, etc. and always respond that I'm sure they wouldn't want me to perform the procedure. I do think my medical background as well as my pathology training give me some understanding of the issues involved in our dog's health. I am wondering why you googled me rather than asking first?
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LOL...I removed plastic surgeon and changed it to psychiatrist right at the same time that you were answering....I also added that you must be having a "field day in the forums"...lol.......I Googled because I grew up in Ridgewood and the Hohokus area and was curious as I'm always interested in speaking with vets. I also have many family members in medicine.....Plus I wanted to hit you up for some liposuction.....
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Well, I could try but no guarantee re: results. Do you have a powerful vacuum? Mine might not be strong enough since the doodles don't shed. Plus you don't look like you need it.
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