Anyone had this issue with their puppy's bite?

[Ginny Nightingale]

A few pups in the litter i am raising have one or both lower canine teeth (baby teeth right now) that are growing up and hitting the upper palate instead of going to the OUTSIDE of the upper jaw--I have been told that the puppy teeth that are doing that should be removed and then you hope that the jaw grows wider and the adult teeth are properly placed....has anyone dealt with this in their pup and if so, how did it turn out?

[F, Calla & Luca]

Yes Karen has given you all the info. as far as I know. Here is a link to a breeder discussion on this, lots of debate as you can see.

http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=179154;article=160318

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

That discussion is disturbing. It seems that some of the breeders are concerned much more with their pocketbooks than with what would be best for the dogs. Waiting until the puppy teeth fall out and the adult teeth come in is exactly the wrong thing to do, as those retained puppy teeth prevent the adult teeth from coming in at the correct angle. 

[Ginny Nightingale]

Just exactly how much practical experience do you have with this method though Karen? Good breeders follow up on hundreds of dogs that go out into the world from their program and they seem to see that the issue resolves itself most of the time--that is their experience talking--and it is just as disturbing that a vet would remove teeth that will fall out within a few months of the surgery and charge for blood tests, anesthesia, etc--it is hard to know who is the greedy one here--just my opinion, but I am suspicious of the vet as well! I have found a lot of online discussions of this issue in poodles and the breeders all felt that in most cases, the adult teeth would be OK but could be removed if not.

I do know that the vets are recommending that the puppy teeth be removed, but I do NOT know if they have any evidence to support that--in the case of my pups, the palate is very soft and the teeth are being accommodated without any punctures--there is no evidence of pain or redness in the upper palate--just a tiny dent.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I had to do some very thorough research on this issue in one case of a dog who was going to be placed for adoption, and of course the vets that I asked for advice and information had nothing to gain because they were not going to be doing whatever was going to be done anyway, the dog was not here in my area. Everything I found, and every vet I spoke with, said that the baby teeth should be pulled, because the problem with leaving the baby teeth alone is that often in these cases, the teeth are retained too long...they do not fall out when they should, and the root is not reabsorbed as it would normally be when they are getting ready to come out, so there is no room for that adult tooth underneath that root. If you don't pull them, you are guaranteeing that the adult teeth cannot come in properly because of this. So "the evidence" is there and it seems pretty clear. 

If you google "retained deciduous canines", you will find this same info over and over again on every veterinary website. Here's just one article explaining it: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/15/us-usa-agriculture-weeds-... 

I can't imagine why anyone would not err on the side of caution and just pull the baby teeth to help ensure that there are no more complicated or costly problems down the road. 

As for pain, dogs are famous for not showing pain, and there again, why would you guess or take a chance that a puppy was in even a little bit of pain when there is such a simple solution? 

In matters of health, I like facts, not opinions or guesswork. This seems very clear cut to me.

As for the vets being greedy, I don't understand that way of thinking. Is a vet being greedy every time he recommends a procedure that he feels would be in the best interests of your dog? Should we all be suspicious every time there is something wrong and think the vet is advising us so he can make more money and not because he truly feels this is the right thing to do? I guess I'm lucky, because I haven't experienced much of that, and I've seen a lot of vets in my time. JD currently has 5 of them, and he is my 4th pet. In fact, I once requested that JD be put under for a procedure only to have the vet tell me it would be safer to do it with local. 

Perhaps "good breeders" follow up on hundreds of dogs from their programs, but not all or even most do. I see a lot of doodle owners, both here and through the DRC, whose dogs get sick and the breeders either ignore them or refuse to accept any responsibility at all.

So clearly, there are good and bad vets just as there are good and bad breeders, and I guess we all have to find ways to distinguish between them. For me, that would translate to transparency of information, honesty, and what is best for the dog, regardless of cost. 

[Ginny Nightingale]

Yes, all true and thanks for the benefit of your research--I will pass it on and suggest it to all the people affected.

I think small animal vets, especially young ones, are suffering financially so maybe greed is the wrong word---it should be survival--there was a big article in the NY Times recently that my daughter sent me about how little vets are making in comparison to their loans, which often total over $200,000--most have to spread the loans over 30 years and even then they have a tough time making loan payments while trying to pay for a home, etc.

My daughter works on commission which she HATES since she makes more money only if she has more clients and/or more expensive treatments or medications (she does large animal calls 4 days a week and small animals 1 day a week--she makes 2x as much money a day when seeing small animals). It is a cruel truth that vets are forced into selling items and treatments the same way a car salesman would sell you a car--I am sure that is not where their heart is, but the bills must be paid.

BUT, I am sure they are not greedy for the most part!!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

But Ginny, the same could be said of most breeders.

Many if not most of them are living in rural areas where there are not many jobs. Many have no college degrees or marketable skills, at least not in fields that are hiring. Many breeders' families have been victims of the loss of industrial jobs with the disappearance of America's manufacturing industry, and the disappearance of the independent family farm. They have mortgages and property taxes and kids to feed cloth and educate, and all the expenses that we all have, and those bills must be paid, too. So maybe it isn't where their hearts are to be less than honest on their websites about doodles, or skimp on proper care for their dogs & puppies, or sell a puppy to anyone who can pay for it, or refuse to help the owner of a puppy with a genetic disease, but it is a cruel truth that many breeders are also selling puppies the way a salesman sells you a car, because they have no other source of income, and no hopes for one in the future, unlike that new vet.

I am sure they are not greedy either, for the most part.  

[Ginny Nightingale]

All sadly true--the big difference is the loan payment--the article was pointing out the discrepancy between the cost of vet school and the expected income--equally expensive as med school but large animal vets will make about 1/3 the salary of a typical physician--then again, no malpractice insurance! I guess it all evens out eventually!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

That's large animal vets in rural practices. The vets we are talking about here are small animal vets with private practices, many in upscale suburban areas, (after all, the buyers of these $2500 puppies are not usually destitute) who do not work on commission, and many of whom have been out of vet school for 20 years or more. All vets are not newly out of school and broke. And of those who are younger, not all had to take out huge loans. A good number I imagine are following in their parents' footsteps, had the funds to pay for school, and have private practices to walk into.

Either way, since it's against the lawe for anyone who is not a vet to practice veterinary medicine, I guess we all need to find a vet who we can trust. Our breeder doesn't have to trust them, we do. 

People also need to find breeders they can trust, who will honor their purchase agreements. 

 

 

[Ginny Nightingale]

Karen--this link from reuters is about the effectiveness of Round-up week killer--could you help me find the one you referred to? I would like to see what it says--in the meantime, I will google retained deciduous canines as you suggested....

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Oh, darn! I never copied it and that was a reply in another discussion. Duh! 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I can't find the first one I linked, but here's another one:

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-dept/small-animal-dept/th...

[Ginny Nightingale]

Thanks!