Are well meaning breeders breeding problems into our doodles?

[DeeDee and Sheila]

I put this discussion on the debate page and didn't receive any replies, so I'll try it here on the forum.  I am hearing about many doodles that have tummy problems.  This HAS to come from the poodle side in my humble opinion, because I've owned a couple labs and have never even heard of a lab that wouldn't eat anything, including panty hose if given the chance.

Then Sheila had Perthes disease, basically getting her hip socket cut off bc of a genetic blood disease whereby the blood wasnt reaching up to the hip bone.  Breeder paid costs up to the price of the dog/ or I could have sent 7 month old Sheila back to breeder (not an option in my book).  Luckily only one hip was involved, 2 would have been over $5000 in expenses. This disease CANNOT be tested for, period.  But it occurs in many types of small dogs and my daughter who is a vet cried w/ me when she heard Sheila had it.  It involved a horrible operation at U of Illinois that almost killed Lil Sheila. Then we had 4 mos of swim therapy 2x/week at the U of Illinois, which was costly and was a 3 hr round trip for treatment. She still uses only 3 legs sometimes when tired and then I give her a pain pill.  It was a nightmare.

The breeder told me she would pull Sheila's mom off the breeding line, the dad was already retiring but had bred hundreds of puppies, so we didn't thing it was him.  But she didn't pull Sheila's mom off the line as promised and she is still breeding Sheila's mom , although with a different sire. She is also using a male puppy from THAT breeding as a future breeder. I asked my daughter and U of I and they said they know it's genetic, but they don't know if its due to a recessive gene or if it could be a gene from just one dog.  My daughter's opinion is that the breeder is "playing with fire" and her undergrad degree is in genetics.

I am disappointed about this and wonder how a good, sturdy breed is going to be built if breeders do these things (and this was a reputable breeder).

What do you dkers think?

 

[BG and Gavin]

Poor Sheila!  It has seemed like a long time since we heard from you DeeDee. 

 I cannot believe that she is continuing to breed this dog.  If she paid you for treatment she must beleive that it is a genetic situation.  I would say it was greed, but even if the same thing happens she will be on the hook again for medical bills.  I suppose if it's only 1/20 say, she only loses profit on one pup.  I have no words.  Sorry you have had to go through this ordeal.  Do you feel that Sheila has a good quality of health now?

[Carol Brand]

Calve Perthes Disease is indeed a disorder seen in Toy and Mini poodles.  There is a test or evaluation for it.  We might not consider it genetic, but it is clearly familial because it runs in lines.  From Versatility in Poodles:

 

Orthopedic  -  Legg-Calve-Perthes Disease (LCP)Disorder:  Legg-Calve-Perthes disease (LCP) is a disorder of hip joint conformation.  It is mostoften seen in the miniature and toy breeds between the ages of four months to a year.  OFA evaluates x-rays and certifies whether a dog is clear of LCP.  If a dog's hips are evaluated as normal for hip dysplasia, the dog is also considered normal for LCP and the LCP number is issued free upon making application.  For more information, see:  http://www.offa.org/leggperthinfo.html.Test:    X-ray.When:   12+ months for OFA certification.Where:    Many veterinarians are experienced in x-raying dogs’ hips.  These films are sent to the OFA registry for a reading.

 

Were Shelia's dam and sire x-rayed before they were bred?   

 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Reading this, and knowing how many doodle breeders breed dogs who are not even a year old, I wonder if that is not part of the problem. There are so many genetic diseases for which there are no tests, but if a breeder does not breed dogs under two years old, some of them would have shown up by that time. Jack's Atopy, for example.

 

[DeeDee and Sheila]

Carol, you are very knowledable about breeding.  Yes, both parents were xrayed for breeding but mom may have been Penn Hip.  U of Il told me that hip dysplaysia will not show Perthes disease.  I was told by the breeder that is common practice to just change the sires in these cases, even in hip dysplasia.  That thought means that they must believe the genetic disorder is recessive.  Oh well, I tried the best I could to find a good breeder.  I agree though, too much poodle, esp in the minis.  I could have found a better bred poodle, I think.  Lesson learned. Thanks for the informative reply. 

[Adina P]

I think it's a definite possibility that there are breeders out there breeding problems into doodles.  Few breeders want to admit that there might be a problem in their lines--even admit to themselves.  Sometimes it might be greed, sometimes it might be fear of failing/losing money/losing what they've invested.  NEITHER is a good reason, but I see greed differently than the other money issue of fear.  In any case, it's not a good thing and while it's impossible to breed lines free of everything...it seems that breeding almost has to be something one approaches with a full willingness to lose money if necessary.  That's why I sometimes daydream about breeding but don't think I could ever do it unless I had a lot of extra money sitting around.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think the problem is when breeding dogs is the main source of income, as opposed to something that supplements the income, or even true "hobby" breeding, which is not done for the primary purpose of selling puppies. If paying your mortgage or feeding your family depends on selling puppies, there are going to be ethical compromises.

[Adina P]

I can imagine that when one's livelihood depends on selling puppies it can definitely skew opinions about one's own breeding stock.

[DeeDee and Sheila]

Wow Karen.  You brought up an issue that I had noticed but not really thought through.  Very young dogs are being bred and tested very early.  I thought there was a rule that the dogs had to be two years old before breeding.  You would be so good on some of these breeding club boards.  Alot of breeders don't know much about genetics, I can tell.  My dogs from 30 yrs ago had virtually no problems, except accidents.  I bought them locally.  I think there are just so many breeders, opinions, etc now that I don't know how a buyer can tell.  Buyer beware, that is for sure.

[DeeDee and Sheila]

Good point.  My old business was insurance brokerage that insured alot of horses.  There it was mostly rich people who had extra money so the whole culture was different.  I know my old breeder was the main breadwinner for the family and is basically trying really hard.  But she said that her club affiliation had all heard about this issue and they agreed that the female should be put back into the breeding program since Perthes isn't genetic (their point of view).  But the breeder was removing the son from the breeding program bc he had an underbite.  Oy.   Oh well, I tried, but I am disappointed bc I had been on the list for another mini ALD with her until all this blew up.  DH says not the right time now, so I'll watch and learn some more.  No guarantees, I know.

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

  Poor Sheila. To continue using Sheila's mother having given a refund ( which is tantamount to accepting the genetic component of the illness) is reprehensible, bearing in mind what a dreadful illness and what she had to go through.

I am surprised that I am still reading about 'Hybrid Vigor' on some of the Doodle websites which I understand is pure twaddle?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

IMO, yes, it's pure twaddle, at least as it applies to deliberately bred mixed breed dogs. Anything the parent breeds are susceptible to, the mixes are susceptible to. A particular genetic disease is the same disease in a Golden Retriever as it is in a Poodle, just like a particular genetic disease in a member of your family is the same as it would be in a member of my family, even if we are of completely different heritage and have no relatives in common.

And when it comes to the ALDs, if you look at the pedigrees, you often see the same kind of in-breeding and line-breeding that you see in some of the much-maligned purebreds.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

DeeDee, you already know how badly I feel about everything that you and poor Sheila had to go through.  I sometimes wonder if breeders are overly focused on producing puppies with the "perfect color, coat and size".  I think that many Doodle "buyers" are really into how their dog is going to look and whether or not they will be non-shedding.  I must admit that when I got Guinness these were priorities for me.  I wanted a cute little cream Doodle who would not shed.  I realize now how ill informed I was.  I never thought all that much about temperament....I had read about how sweet these dogs were and so I considered temperament a "non issue".  How crazy is that!  I knew enough to be sure that the parents were hip tested, mostly because of my hip displasia issues with my Lab.  If there are others like me (and I know there are), it's no wonder that the breeders are focusing on the more superficial things....heck, I was being superficial myself.  I think that breeders will not be motivated to change their "selection criteria" for breeder dogs until owners are more knowledgeable and begin making demands about temperament and health history.