Concerned and Frustrated

[Phoebe's Mom]

I apologize in advance for belaboring this point but, Phoebe is still having issues with peeing ever since we started her on a different prescription food in an attempt (which has been successful) to have her release her anal sacs on her own (we had had to have this done every three to four weeks by a vet tech because they were so engorged).  I just took her to the vet last Thursday as I was frustrated that she was only peeing twice, on average, a day since we started the new food.  The vet assured me that the food was, as I had thought, sapping her sytem of water as she was now pooping more frequently from the large amount of fiber added to her diet.  Phoebe has never been a big drinker but we have been coaxing her to drink more with ice and by adding ice to her water bowl.  She is doing better but she is still not drinking a lot.  I am so concened that I had the vet take a sterile urine sample because I am petrified that something might be brewing and we are missing it if we only look to the change in her diet.  The panel came back normal.

 

I have been keeping a log of the times she pees per day --yep, I am that anal--and while on most days, she pees at least twice, sometimes three times, yesterday she only peed once.  She has peed this morning so now I am watching her like a hawk and trying to get her to drink more.  You know how you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink?  I am here to tell you that it works the same way for doodles!  (at least for mine, that is)  You guys have been wonderful in the past so I am throwing this one out to you--any advice or observations on my dilemma will be most appreciated!

[Amy, Cubbie & Ollie]

Sorry to hear about all of you trouble with Phoebe.  A year and a half ago we had problems with Cubbie not drinking enough.  He never was much of a drinker but suddenly he just wasn't interested in his water bowl at all.  Then started throwing up (turns out he has a rice intolerance and we were feeding him food with rice in it) and the next thing we knew, we were at the vet getting him some subcutaneous fluids because he was dehydrated.  The vet recommended that we get a doggie drinking fountain so I immediately ran out and got one, because that is what we do for our doodles  :)  It seemed to work for Cubbie and he started to drink more water.  The fountain is kind of a pain because you have to make sure that you keep it clean which involves taking it apart, but if it gets them to drink it is worth it.  The fountain kept the water cool and circulated which I think is more appealing to them sometimes.  We had to keep an eye on Cubbie because he liked to paw at the trickling water, but other than that it worked out.  We eventually stopped using it because we got lazy and went back to a regular bowl.  If we see his drinking diminish we will start using the fountain again though.

 

I guess some dogs just drink less than others and as long as they aren't dehydrated or sick in any other way they are probably ok.  We recently adopted a second doodle and it seems like he is ALWAYS drinking and sometimes I worry that he drinks too much.

 

Does the food you are feeding come in a canned variety?  You could always try adding some of that to her meal because the canned food has a much higher water content.  Good luck and keep us posted!

[Jane Smith]

I add water to the dry dog food.  They like the way it makes a little gravy, and it gets more water in them.

[F, Calla & Luca]

What food is it? Could you add water to the food. I am sure since Phoebe seems fine and the vet has no concerns that you probably shouldn't either. Luca may only go 2 to 3 times a day, while Calla can go a lot of times.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

What is the new food that you started? I have never heard of any food "sapping" a dog's (or a person's) system of water becuase of the fiber content.

 

[F, Calla & Luca]

Well, some fiber does sop up a lot of water, so to speak. Then the dog might not reabsorb all of it in the colon and it would be excreted in the feces. So the dog might have less fluid to urinate.

[Phoebe's Mom]

She was put on prescription WD.  At first I thought the vet's comment was somewhat strange myself, but then I did some research which showed that it was possible especially because she is pooping so much more frequently.  All the fiber is drawing water from her system.  I am thinking that adding either the canned food or some water to her food might be helpful at this point.  She shows no signs of distress or a change in her behavior.  Heck, she is not even asking to go out when we take her.  I cannot figure as she can be happy going so infrequently.

[F, Calla & Luca]

If she is excreting a lot of fluid in her feces she will urinate less. This is not a problem as long as she produces enough urine to meet her physiological needs since the kidneys do process lots of things too. But the body is really a pro at determining these things. I wouldn't worry. If she has ample access to water she should be fine.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

WD does contain a LOT of fiber, and most of it is in the form of cellulose, which is insoluble and cannot be utilized by the body. It's also full of corn, much of which is also not digestible. I don't want to turn this into a discussion about food, but i truly think that putting her on a non-Rx diet with more natural, soluble forms of fiber would help a lot.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I knew we could count on you to address this issue. It's not bad per se to have indigestible fiber to add bulk to the stool. In this case it's probably ood to help express the anal glands. But I agree that there may be much better ways to do this. Psyllium also bulks up stools and is sold in powder form. Has anyone tried this to sprinkle on dog's food?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree that it's not bad to have indigestible fiber in the diet, for people, too. Most plant cellulose is insoluble in a raw state, and only partially soluble when cooked, but the cellulose in this food may not even be the kind that's from edible plants like vegetables. It could be from wood shavings. From The Dog Food Project Ingredients to Avoid:

CELLULOSE
AAFCO: Purified, mechanically disintegrated cellulose prepared by processing alpha cellulose obtained as a pulp from fibrous plant materials.
Dried wood is the most common source for cellulose (I'm not kidding.). It is cleaned, processed into a fine powder and used to add bulk and consistency to cheap pet foods. I would consider this ingredient appropriate for termites, but certainly not for dogs or cats.

Rx Foods are certainly not cheap to buy, but they contain the cheapest imaginable ingredients, as you can see.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

We recently had a question about Hill's W/D food in The Food Group, so I took a look. This is what I found:

Hill's w/d is actuall their weight-loss formula, along with being recommended for GI issues and diabetes. The ingredients are horrendous:

Ingredients

Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Mill Run, Chicken, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Lactic Acid, Caramel Color, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, Flaxseed, L-Lysine, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Calcium Carbonate, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, Iodized Salt, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, L-Threonine, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-canine-wd-canine-low-fat-diabet...

 

No meat at all in the first 5 ingrdients, and the 6th one is animal by-products. And many of them are on the Dog Food Projects  list of ingredients to avoid. With all that corn and cellulose, it's no wonder the food is high-fiber. This food contains almost 29% insoluble fiber (that means, it can't be digested) and only 18% protein. The amount that I would have to feed Jack is 6-8 cups per day! (He currently gets 3 cups of Orijen) That should tell you something: the food is mainly garbage and fillers and therefore your dog has to eat tons of it to get enough nutrients to stay alive.  So on top of being a horrible food, it's also going to cost you more than any other food out there.

We can look at the fiber values of other foods, but the best bet would be to add your own fiber: canned pumpkin, green beans (cooked), sweet potatoes, etc.

 

To view the discussion: http://www.doodlekisses.com/group/thefoodgroup/forum/topics/diarrhe...

 

[F, Calla & Luca]

Whole grain corn as the first ingredient. Wow.